Yeah, which is odd, because I didn't think I had my email address posted on here.

Could have gotten it through the mailing list I guess.

Hate mail is entirely inappropriate, but as long as the thread contains new information or a new viewpoint the discussion has value. Perhaps it is due to my inexperience as a sailor (two years lake-sailing), but I've found every reply posted here interesting, EXCEPT those that are based solely on trying to belittle other writers. Even the replies that perhaps don't offer new information can be valuable in that they reinforce other viewpoints, a kind of "straw vote" in the discussion. Replies based purely upon the writer's emotional response to the topic are also valuable, as long there is self-control exercised in focusing the emotion toward a specific person. While the topic is generating appropriate responses, let the thread run free, I say.

so, what would have happened if they came back ok?

Today at our local Cat club Kurnell we raced in 18 to 20 knot gusty southerly winds sustained with a 20 minute squall averaging 24 knots and gusting to 31... all ofically recorded.

Result was a Tornado and Nacra 5.8 with broken masts, Taipan 4.9 crew gashed from top of forehead to mid cheak and over the eye (requiring stitches) after cartwheeling and hiting a side stay, plus many swims.

I was on the rescue boat and we cancled the racing during the squall, towing home 2 boats while the taipan crew was rushed to hospital.

Whilst the wind was fresh it was just still sailable but all skippers were happy to return to shore. And before I here any more about I am experienced in 30 knots, Id like to say that our club is made up of many State, National and World champions whome all love a blow. Talk to the real experts as to what is good crazy fun and what is just crazy.

How many sailors (and I have fallen into this catagory before) sailed in 20 to 25 knots and told everybody that she was blowing 30 to 35. As sailors we all tend to exaggerate. We are the worst, second only to fisherman.

I love to push the limits and have grown a reputation for it at our club. But when I do it I will do it either close to shore, in an on shore breeze or with a support boat accompanying me. Our local Coast Guard are based next door to our club house but I'd never rely on them for rescue. They have better things to do than come to the rescue of some stupid sailor that deliberatly puts himself into a potentualy dangerous situation.

These are just my opinions but I am sure that they would be shared by the CG.

I'll bet they would agree, too. The trick is having the foresite to know those limits and the maturity to test them whithout risking other lives. The sailors who are the subject of this thread had neither.

Allow me to also point out that all those recently mentioned accidents occured during a race, where competition between sailors was also a factor. Sailing as fast as possible, or at least faster than the next guy, during heavy winds is different than survival sailing.

If the people in that race were really worried they could have simply dropped their sails and rode it out. If shore was downwind of them they could have dropped the main and ran under jib alone.

______ Next thought... ______
If the Nacra sailors had invested in a specialty sail for their boat, one designed for high winds with a flatter cut and shorter foot, perhaps even a shorter luff, they might have been able to keep control of the boat in the first place.

_____ A little off the topic... ______
I've often thought about getting a "storm cat". Just a little 14' one-person boat to take out when it's really blowing hard and see how much fun I can have. A larger boat, with a smaller sail-plan (an 18' boat with a 14' boat's mast and sails) would seem to be the ideal. However I can't right an 18' or even a 16' boat alone, in a reasonable amount of time, because I only weigh 150# soaking wet.
Anyhow, I'm considering a Trac 14 "super sloop" (r/f jib and trapeze) for this, and perhaps by the time I feel competant enough to head out into 30+ knots of wind I'll be able to afford a new sail. Something designed specifically for that boat, a skipper of my weight, and heavy-weather conditions. Yes, I will be thinking long and hard about what safety gear to use and consider activating an EPIRB the very last resort.

I also love to push the limits (maybe more) outside of racing but still take the same precautions. If you want to have some real scary fun and put yourself in some dodgy conditions, have a freind in a speed boat (camera boat) go out with you. This way you can document your fun and at the same time, always have assistance close at hand.

"The trick is having the foresite to know those limits and the maturity to test them whithout risking other lives. The sailors who are the subject of this thread had neither."

I`d have to agree with Steve T. In an offshore wind of that strength, the sailors were basically saying to the Coast Guard : "We`re going for a quick sail, please come fetch us in a few hours." Looking at the wind graphs Tracie posted I`d have to say that conditions must have been beyond survival conditions.
Also agree with Steven Medwell (must be something to the name !), It`s generally about 20 knots when most sailors are already being tested to their limits, as well as the limits of the boat.
We all take risks : any of us could drown in 12 knots of wind, never mind 35-45 knots. Some of us also skydive, paraglide, snowboard etc - all sports involving evaluating the risks, and being prepared for them. There are two types of paraglider pilot : One type flies with a reserve parachute, has it repacked & inspected regularly, watches the weather report every day for 3-4 days before going to a flying site, then evaluates the weather himself, and asks advice from the local pilots. The other type arrives at a flying site, and without checking his equipment, the weather forecast, or the actual prevailing conditions, launches off into the sky without noticing that all the local pilots are waiting for the conditions to calm down to a safe level. It`s this type of pilot that makes the sport appear dangerous to outside observers, since they`re always making the newspaper headlines for all the wrong reasons.
Fortunately for the sport, they are also a self-regulating bunch : By virtue of their attitude to safety, they keep their own numbers down.
I`m sure this thread would have a different tone if the headlines had read : Coast Guard fails to locate catamaran sailors, search called off after 5 days.

Just my thoughts, on a positive note, maybe the guys involved have learnt to respect the elements, and woken us all up to the power of nature.
It`s great fun to push ourselves past the limits, but always keep in mind the "what if this goes wrong" thought - If they had gone out on a small lake in an onshore wind of the same strength and informed someone of their intended time of return, that would be enough safety for me. Flares would then be a bonus, not a necessity. I`ve sailed in 48-55knots (recorded) on a hobie 16 like that, was great fun, never upright for more than 30 seconds, capsized more than 15 times before we lost count. The answer to the "what if this goes wrong" question was that we would end up upside down, drifting back to a friendly shore with no breaking waves & dangerous rocks or reefs. There is a way of taking risks, pushing the envelope, and coming home safely, even if it goes wrong.

I agree with Steve completely. The A-class and Tornado class cancel racing at 22 knots because they know that is the safe limit for the boat and the sailors. That's the reality of these boats and the wisdom of the sailors in the class.

If you really have a desire to sail a beach cat in over 25 knots of wind, just be sure you setup the boat for the conditions, have a life support system in place, and don't just go out to try it "for the hell of it". I've done a lot of high wind (+20 knots) sailboarding. It's much faster than any typical beach cat and way safer (when you fall, that board and rig is a sea anchor). You get seperated from a beach cat, you won't be able to swim near fast enough to catch it unless it turtles (I've seen this even in 15 knots of wind).

I totally disagree with this statement! I have done some high wind sailing at a club in Montreal and this club was equipped with a weather station from Environment Canada. I know that I sailed in 20-25 knots winds on many occasions with a Prindle16. I also sailed at lake Champlain and at that time we had web access to a US weather station (nacra 5.7 singlehandled in 22 knots with 27knots gusts)

It seems to me that " ... because they know that is the safe limit ..." is a bold statement. Most likely is that these racing boats are very expensive and there is a real risk of an accident rounding a mark or at close racing. I know that it was the case at the last F18 race that I sowed up to (as a spectator) Peoples were concerned about collision damage and the chop.

Contrarily to the “wisdom” of your class, 22 knots is not a wind limit, Cat sailing doesn't become "unsafe" at that wind speed. I had very nice sailing performed at 25knots with many cats and I am certain that my 5.2 will handle strong winds with ease.

By purchasing an A-cat, you gave committed yourself to own a very light boat. The low and medium wind performances of these boats is remarkable but at the cost of a more fragile boat and more susceptible to collision and puncture. Also, these boat are much more difficult (and expensive) to repair.

About the “Expert Sailors incident”:

Personally, I would not have gone sailing in strong weather with offshore winds, eighter with my cat or with my sailboard.

Personally, I will not condemn these sailors for their action.

Also, if their rescue by the US Coast Guards was assimilated as an improper use of funds and equipment, then all pleasure craft originated rescue should be treated the same way.

Hi Charels,

You are correct..... 25 to 30 is sailable but is a test of survival (staying upright). I have sailed quite a few times in winds upto 30 knots and have had some of my wildest rides. But also did so taking appropriate precautions.

I think that racers would rather call it quits after 22 knots because your tacktics go from reading shifts, current and covering boats to just staying upwrite more often than your competitors. They would also rather wait for conditions to settle before they continue their series of races than blow everything (equiptment failure and injury) in a survival race and not be able to continue the regatta.

I have missed several weeks of racing due to equiptment failure such as broken masts, boards ect. Sailors serious about their sailing realy don't want to loose training time on their boats. If you don't use it, you loose it. And your competition stays in the groove and gives you a touch up when you hit the water next.

Best to have a toy boat to play in the big stuff and keep the good boat for your serious racing.

Charles,
I kind of agree with you in one way: If you are sailing on protected waters, meaning relatively flat water, you can safely sail and control cats in much higher winds than if you are also dealing with big chop. Same thing if you are out on the ocean and have no current or boat traffic causing chop and all you have to deal with is long, smooth swells.

Sometimes you can find ideal speed conditions on an inland lake in Kansas.

So the "safe limit" for racing or pleasure sailing actually has a lot to do with the water conditions as well as the wind conditions.

This season we had a race in 30+ mph winds. We had 380lb on my Nacra 5.2 and we went out Uni-rigged. The chop alone was wild enough. Out on the ocean I would imagine it would have been very bad.

People may think they know their limits, but most who get in trouble have thought they were within bounds. Anything can happen, and every sailor should set themselves up for a safe sailing experiance.

One of the funnest times I've had was sailing our old Club Wave out in some 25mph + wind. Waves love wind...

We take these risks not to leave life, but to stop life leaving us.....

Which is why I would probably have been tempted to join them for some high jinks on the ocean waves.

That said, I wouldn't put too much faith in flares or a cell phone on their own - I think a VHF (in water proof bag) and someone back at the beach who will call in a resuce if you are overdue is a generally a good idea. One of those satellite thingeys looks like a wise investment too....It's also helpful to have fellow lobotomy patients sailing out there with you who can haul you back to the beach without the CG getting involved.

Chris.

PS Mary - could you explain your previous comment about max hull speed for a cat?

There have been fairly extensive debates on the forum about the maximum speed that can be reached by beach cats. Wouter once said the maximum is 30 knots. Others have strongly disputed that and claim the top speed attainable is 20-22 knots. The people providing these figures are mostly engineers armed with formulae dealing with factors of hydrodynamic drag, righting moment, and other stuff.

Non-engineer sailors provide claims anecdotally of speeds up to 30 knots, some of them backed up by their GPS. However, the engineers say such anecdotal reports are unreliable and often subjective. They concede that speeds that high may be possible in very short bursts, often enhanced by wave-surfing, but that such speed cannot be sustained.

Whether the maximum speed potential is 20 knots, 22 knots or 30 knots, everyone seems to agree that there indeed IS a maximum.

I am going to Vote, Here in America that is what we do.

It is a risk to get up in the morning a huge risk to drive your car to work (statistically) each morning. And the taxpayer cost of that is staggering.

the coast guard costs the tax payers the same amount weather they rescue a sailor or twenty or none.

I would have sailed in the wind because it was fun and would be a great story to tell around the campfire.

I don't care if everyone thinks I am a dumb A## for doing so.

I don't care if there is a limit to the speed a cat can go as long as it is a hoot getting it to go that fast.

I am 40 and have done many things, when I die I will not regret having been rescued by the CG (or serving in the USMC) or anything that I did, I will only regret the things I let fear stop me from doing.

Lets see the statistics on rescues from hang gliding, rock climbing, River Kayaking, mountain biking, Motocross, Walking in the woods alone.

I understand safety and sometimes I understand living life on the edge.

I would have gone sailing.

I have to agree with Marc -- sailing in 35-knot winds (gusting to 50) is not as scary and dangerous as driving on a freeway to work in a city in rush-hour traffic. Being the wimp that I am, if I had to choose between the two, I would take the boat any day.

So, if thrills and danger and living on the edge are the goals, why not head for the highway rather than the ocean?

Marc,
You are right, it is a risk just getting out of your driveway. You are also right that it probably cost the same whether the CG rescues you or trains for it. The difference that I see is any rescue mission has its danger factor (that is why you are being rescued). Is it OK for someone else to get hurt and/or killed trying to rescue you just because you pay taxes? All other arguments do have their own merits, but I for one will go out when I am confident "I" can get back. Who will go to that 22 year old CG's parents/or wife with a little baby and say hey I'm sorry about him/her but damn I had fun.

OK now I'll get off my soap box.

Clayton

It was a vote but what the heck.

The coast guard was not risking their lives any more than they do every day. They train to do what they do as safely as they can. If it was a risk of there lives then they would not have done it.

We all make choices in life the coast guard makes theirs and they are responsible for it. The sailors made theirs and were responsible for it. It is a waste of everyone's time to say who was "right" and point at who was "wrong" as if that makes us right or wrong.

If you feel sailing in high wind is wrong because it may require the coast guard to do exactly what they are paid to do and volunteer to do and choose to do then don't do it.

I sail because I love it not because it is more or less dangerous than driving to work. I sail in high wind because it is fun. People do all sorts of sports because sitting at home watching TV does not have the same effect on their mind. You may if you wish condemn someone for throwing themselves against the wind in passion. you can even condemn the coast guard for choosing to risk themselves to rescue the sailors (it was their choice to do so).

Life is not lived looking back it is lived making choices now.

I will say it again I would choose to sail in the wind over discussing it on the internet.

I can relate to what Clayton said, because our next door neighbor is in the Coast Guard and he has a wife and three young children. He would probably give his life, if necessary to save someone in distress at sea. But why should he have to take that risk and make that sacrifice if it is not REALLY necessary? As with all our military service branches, I think my neighbor would feel better about dying while protecting our shorelines from terrorists than rescuing somebody out for a joy ride on a catamaran.

I haven't asked him, so it's just a hunch.