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Nationals Format #261737
07/26/13 12:51 AM
07/26/13 12:51 AM

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thricebitten
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thricebitten
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T



Hi all,

been waiting for the forum to go quiet frown before posting this thought crazy , that provoked some lively wink discussion at the last National AGM. Hoping if enough interest is created that it can become a Agenda item for the next National AGM cool .

So for those that where not at the last Nat AGM, here is the thought. After the success of holding the spinnaker Nats immediatly before the normal Nats smirk , what about we hold all 3 different rig National titles on seperate days confused .

So it could work something like this (just my ramblings).
Day 1. AM, All Measurement. PM, Spinnaker Racing.
Day 2. AM, Spinnaker Racing. PM, Spinnaker Racing.
Day 3. AM, All Measurement. PM, Mk2 (Sloop) Racing.
Day 4. AM, Mk2 Racing. PM, Mk2 Racing.
Day 5. AM, All Measurement. PM, Mk1 Racing.
Day 6. AM, Mk1 Racing. PM, Mk1 Racing (all racing finishes).
Then it's party and presentation time cool .

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261738
07/26/13 04:03 AM
07/26/13 04:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Victoria Australia
Is there a difference between sloop with spinnaker and sloop without ?????

if so you'd need an additional 2 days.....



I like the idea you've proposed... in theory those keen enough could race in each class


days 1&2 setup and race for sloop-rigged c/ship
days 3&4 setup and race for sloop-rigged spinnaker c/ship
days 5&6 setup and race for cat-rigged c/ship
days 7&8 setup and race for cat-rigged spinnaker c/ship


Imagine if one boat took out all the c/ships shocked

Another way of looking at it is you could also have it set so each class counted towards a general overall championships...

so you'd have:
champion of cat/spin
champion of sloop spin
champion of sloop
champion of cat
&
best overall Mosquito


one busy week of sailing...... but hell worth it
wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261743
07/26/13 07:47 AM
07/26/13 07:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 205
Melb. Aust
Trevor Offline
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Trevor  Offline
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Melb. Aust
Oh, my aching muscles. I'm going to complain the whole time, but count me in! cool

Not only would it remove the cat rig cowboys from holding up the gentleman class starts, but I would be able to don the 10 gallon hat myself grin

...now, how to tell the crew... shocked


Mozzie 1828
' '
Sugarloaf Sailing Club
Melbourne
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261759
07/26/13 05:04 PM
07/26/13 05:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Mk1 is the biggest class, cuts their sailing nationals down to 1.5 days. Not worth the effort.
Darryn
Bullet,
1782

Re: Nationals Format [Re: Pirate] #261765
07/26/13 07:04 PM
07/26/13 07:04 PM

T
thricebitten
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thricebitten
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T



Originally Posted by Pirate
Is there a difference between sloop with spinnaker and sloop without ?????


No, only one spinnaker class, spinnaker numbers haven't been enough to think of splitting. Besides which I think 3 classes is enough sick.

Re: Nationals Format [Re: Darryn] #261766
07/26/13 07:20 PM
07/26/13 07:20 PM

T
thricebitten
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thricebitten
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Originally Posted by Darryn
Mk1 is the biggest class, cuts their sailing nationals down to 1.5 days. Not worth the effort.
Darryn
Bullet,
1782

Hi Darryn, was hoping this thread would bring out comments from some we don't hear from very often. You still sailing the ff as well?

What about getting a youngster on to the front and doing Mk2 as well, then makes a few days. If not how many races/days do you want for Titles to be worth the effort?

The basic idea behind the thought is to get more boats in each title smile . Plus keep a important part of the class strong and hopefully increase it, introducing young sailors to Mossies as crews cool .

Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261768
07/26/13 09:30 PM
07/26/13 09:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Hi Gary,
I hope Meningie will stick with the current format.
I am never going to race mk2.
Cheers,
Darryn

Re: Nationals Format [Re: Darryn] #261770
07/27/13 12:45 AM
07/27/13 12:45 AM

T
thricebitten
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thricebitten
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T



Hi Darryn,

Format for Meningie I would imagine is pretty much as in the past, certainly nothing to do with this discussion. I believe any change has to be a Agenda item for a National AGM and then voted on by the members before it could take place at the following Nats, so earliest any change similar to my first post would be 2014/15.

As I said this discussion started at last years Nat AGM (and appeared to have some support) but couldn't be voted on as it was not an agenda item (this allows people like yourself that may not make it to all Nats to still participate in voting by proxy).

To me sailing the Mossie in it's 3 variants is part of what has kept me interested in the class (since 1997) and brought me back to the class when I have strayed away (feeling old cry). Mossies are a awesome sloop rigged cat, thats how I started with my son grin.

So what format (number races/days) do you think the Mossies should use, what would make you interested in racing Mossies more?

Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261771
07/27/13 04:45 AM
07/27/13 04:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 175
Melbourne
Nic M Offline
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Melbourne
For what it's worth I would probably get more interested in doing a Nats as I could still sail one up but also have the youngest son sail a few days with me........



Nic Maan
Sanity 1815
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261781
07/27/13 01:57 PM
07/27/13 01:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Originally Posted by thricebitten


So what format (number races/days) do you think the Mossies should use, what would make you interested in racing Mossies more?


I race my Mozzy most Saturdays. Both the clubs I sail at aren't real good with online results or any results really unless you hang around in the bar for a couple of hours afterwards which bores the s..t out of me. I time myself and a couple of the more competitive cats I race against and run my own competition at home on my pc. Its useful for identifying who is improving, that's how i know which VYC yardsticks work and which are pure fantasy.

I wouldn't change that much from the current format of the Nationals but I have given it some thought over the years,
1, The 4 or 5 days we race gives enough time to experience different weather conditions.
2, 10 or more races with flexibility to jam in as many as possible on one day if conditions suit.
3, Only one discard race, rewards consistency.
4, 720 if in the wrong, I don't believe a 360 is enough penalty for a prang or infringement.
5, More windward return races with a leeward gate. Gives more tactical options.
6, If we are going to race triangles, one reach should be on trapeze.
7, Courses should be positioned for good racing, not to cause prangs or to suit the very few spectators that watch.
8, More ocean venues, less lakes. For some reason our Nationals are rarely on the ocean. Sailing in big waves is a skill too.
9, Venues between Melbourne and Adelaide work best.

Most of the above is already done at the nats just with a few tweaks.

I think your multi mode type Nationals would suit the half dozen or so who race with spinnakers AND have access to a crew. Maybe you should try it as a three day event, outside the Nationals, one day for each mode, like an triathlon.

Anyway, that's way more then my 2 cents worth, I don't want to dominate the discussion, Ill step back and leave you guys to it,
Darryn
Bullet
1782



Re: Nationals Format [Re: Darryn] #261786
07/27/13 07:18 PM
07/27/13 07:18 PM

T
thricebitten
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thricebitten
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Hey Darryn,

thanks for the input, it's much more valuable than 2 cents. Some good food for thought.

I think one of the reasons for lack of "Ocean" venues, is the lack of ocean clubs where Mossies are sailed, I know Mossies have approached places like Torquay Sailing club and they are not interested in running Titles for Mossies. Does Rivoli Bay count as Ocean? Port Phillip Bay? I wouldn't call them lakes and they where venues for 2 of last 4 Nats. I too love to sail in big waves, some of the most enjoyable and challenging Mossie racing I have done was at Torquay, but I am not sure it is for everyone.

Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261788
07/27/13 10:34 PM
07/27/13 10:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Hi Gary,
I haven't sailed Rivioli Bay, was there swell to surf? Port Phillip isn't ocean, not much clean swell but plenty of confused chop to get some rides off.
Warrnambool was the last nats I remember with decent waves but I have missed a few since then.
cheers,
Darryn

Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261792
07/28/13 04:17 AM
07/28/13 04:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 70
Port Vincent, SA
Hack Offline
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Hack  Offline
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Posts: 70
Port Vincent, SA
Hi all,

As a newcomer to Mozzies, this coming nats will be my first for the class. Can someone please tell me what the expected format of racing is?
I sail cat-rigged and do have spinnaker.

Other classes I've been involved in have had (actually or close to) 9 heats over 6 or 7 days.

I like the idea of windward-return racing with a bottom gate, as triangle races become very much a 'procession'.

Ultimately though, I'll be happy with whatever is dished up, as I'm just keen to be involved...



Hack

'Goodnight Nurse'
#1769
&
#1636
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261803
07/28/13 08:20 PM
07/28/13 08:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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East Gippsland, Australia
It should be the same as last time. Two days of spinnaker racing (all-in, short-sharp windward-leeward races) followed by 4 days of Cats and Sloops racing without spinnakers in their own divisions (7 to 10 triangle-sausage races).


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261810
07/28/13 10:03 PM
07/28/13 10:03 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
Rivoli Bay is as good as South Aus gets for ocean waves, straight from Antartica with love and it has a well known surf beach. Little tip for Meningie because it's about 6ft deep and between 8 to 15km to the other side the chop has a funny wave frequency, if you get a chance get some practice in there.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261811
07/29/13 12:37 AM
07/29/13 12:37 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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Posts: 416
Hmm, as much i like to be all for it, theres a few things, i like to say,

Pros,Good to get more people into the class, you can sail in all regattas, bigger fleet racing and probably a lot more but cant think right now,

Cons: A sailor can win all regattas, (no trophy sharing), need 2 weeks to make a good event thats not rushed. what yacht club can hold nationals for 2 weeks and experience all weather conditions.

Im all for it but those are my concerned.

Any thoughts?




Last edited by Matt_Stone; 07/29/13 12:38 AM.
Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261812
07/29/13 12:46 AM
07/29/13 12:46 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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I have asked around the other "ocean" clubs like torquay, and not interested, Somers Yc has swell and short chop with tide straight from the heads, but clearly people dont like the "ocean" sailing from the Vic state titles as there was a massive drop in boats. i enjoy ocean sailing.

Re: Nationals Format [Re: ] #261814
07/29/13 03:54 AM
07/29/13 03:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 81
To windward of you!
Sixth Element Offline
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Posts: 81
To windward of you!
In my opinion this wouldn't work. Yes it may get more boats on each of the start lines but then agin it may not. How many crews are going to want to sit around and wait while skippers sail two days spinnaker cat rigged (like most of you do) then sail two days then wait two more for presentation.

I know of at least one other class that has tried this and they found people turned up for the mode of sailing they normally sail then went home. Come the last day and presentation only half the class was there.

For those who don't enjoy sailing the other modes they will probably not even bother to come if there is a large distance to travel for only a day and a half racing. Then what happens if the weather doesn't cooperate? They may end up with a half days racing for any given mode.

Just my opinion but I don't think it would work. I think it would be a good separate regatta like a three day mixed regatta where we could all sail each mode on a day to give bigger fleets and promote all modes of the class to others.


"Sixth Element"
1782 MK2 w/spinnaker.
Lake Bonney Y.C.
National Sec. / S.A President / S.A Measurer / Commodore LBYC
Re: Nationals Format [Re: Sixth Element] #261816
07/29/13 04:44 AM
07/29/13 04:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline
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Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
^ good post smile


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: Nationals Format [Re: Sixth Element] #261828
07/29/13 03:01 PM
07/29/13 03:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by alegayter_mossie
...... How many crews are going to want to sit around and wait while skippers sail two days spinnaker cat rigged (like most of you do) then sail two days then wait two more for presentation.

Is there any reason why the presentation couldn't be held once that class has finished IE: that night, would also give the option of a more social gathering of the different classes. The presentation could be attended by the class that's just sailed aswell as the class that's about to sail..... effectively doubling the 'normal' turnout for presentations !!!

Originally Posted by alegayter_mossie
...... I know of at least one other class that has tried this and they found people turned up for the mode of sailing they normally sail then went home. Come the last day and presentation only half the class was there.

that happens on normal club days aswell, and other forms of racing suffer from this just as much, even the 'fans & spectators' will leave the instant the checkered falls.....

Originally Posted by alegayter_mossie
...... For those who don't enjoy sailing the other modes they will probably not even bother to come if there is a large distance to travel for only a day and a half racing. Then what happens if the weather doesn't cooperate? They may end up with a half days racing for any given mode.

Its a championship, those that half hearted will always find an excuse as to why they didn't go, to far, not enough sailing, to windy, to cold, its in the ocean, its...... all to hard !!!. If the social activites are more a part of the event then it may intice those for a come look see wink
the weather......... its always a what if
smile



Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

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