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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264360
09/20/13 07:52 AM
09/20/13 07:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
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Sebring, Florida.
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I'm going to leave home early, try to make it to ATL in time to watch it on the big screen TV in the pilot lounge today, if the nit wits aren't watching Golf or something else, then about 10:20pm I'll be on my way back to Dubai.

Have fun boys, I hope Jimmy can pull off another great start.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL8/history/20130921/0222Z/KATL/OMDB


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264362
09/20/13 08:29 AM
09/20/13 08:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Has anyone checked their TV schedule to see if it's on NBCS today? I checked right before I left the house this morn and it didn't show up.


Have Fun
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: catman] #264363
09/20/13 08:32 AM
09/20/13 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by catman
Has anyone checked their TV schedule to see if it's on NBCS today? I checked right before I left the house this morn and it didn't show up.

Yes


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264364
09/20/13 08:32 AM
09/20/13 08:32 AM
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Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #264369
09/20/13 08:54 AM
09/20/13 08:54 AM
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Carl Offline
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Hey Jake --you were the one with GPS on his wrist checking VMG S and very good at Navagation etc --I think that is what team O achieved by doing "something weird "upwind--A BETTER VMG upwind angle. The TV stats indicated a lower faster course sailed with better VMG . Jobson also mentioned he saw team O slide sideways a couple times upwind. This must be from attaining higher speeds by sailing a slightly lower -close reaching type angle then inadvertantly sometimes lifting on the foils as higher speed is reached . Going upwind surface foiling must be a delicate balance of angle vs speed keeping the radius board in the water for lateral resistance { from slipping sideways} . As a gust hits it must temporarily jump them up .

The designer in me can't help wonder if the foils were reversed --angled outward rather than tucked in towards the other windward hull, --that they would not provide much more lateral resistance upwind and the posibilty of foiling upwind most likely at close reach angles.

Seems team O has found a better upwind angle VMG than team N .

DISCLAIMER --i intend no disrespect to any person or team in observations -comments and constructive criticsms made --{joking a little here }

Carl

Last edited by Carl; 09/20/13 09:08 AM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264371
09/20/13 09:03 AM
09/20/13 09:03 AM
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Carl Offline
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Excellent race by team O yesterday --one small constructive criticsm. {see disclaimer} --When team O is ahead and has better speed why are they splitting so far to opposite sides of the course. Classic tactics while ahead after rounding the leeward mark is to sail upwind until your opponant is rounding then tack . This places your boat directly upwind from your opponant able to loosely cover in either direction .

The choise is made by the belief that while ahead you are in better wind pressure and towards the favored lift --BUT --gains made in match racing are all relative to the other boat --they need to settle for smaller potential gains and at least a loose cover on tean N . Instead we saw them split upwind yesterday --a potential mistake when they can not afford any . Lets hope they keep at least a loose cover when ahead .They are faster now --no reason not to.

{double check previous disclaimer ;] }

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Carl] #264372
09/20/13 09:18 AM
09/20/13 09:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Carl
Excellent race by team O yesterday --one small constructive criticsm. {see disclaimer} --When team O is ahead and has better speed why are they splitting so far to opposite sides of the course. Classic tactics while ahead after rounding the leeward mark is to sail upwind until your opponant is rounding then tack . This places your boat directly upwind from your opponant able to loosely cover in either direction .

The choise is made by the belief that while ahead you are in better wind pressure and towards the favored lift --BUT --gains made in match racing are all relative to the other boat --they need to settle for smaller potential gains and at least a loose cover on tean N . Instead we saw them split upwind yesterday --a potential mistake when they can not afford any . Lets hope they keep at least a loose cover when ahead .They are faster now --no reason not to.

{double check previous disclaimer ;] }


While in the lead, Oracle is getting to the preferred side of the course. The guy behind seems to just split for the sake of splitting even if it puts them in a statistically less favorable position.

-Ding, divert your eyes...I'm going to speculate and imagine I know what I know something for the sake of discussion

I am also surprised that the boat behind is so quick to split and gamble on the opposite side of the course when it's proven to be less of an advantage in either current and/or pressure. I guess if you have committed yourself to the belief that you can't sail faster/higher than your competitor it makes sense to split and roll the dice...but I'm not sure either team has a clear advantages even in the normal wind speed differences across the course on a single upwind leg. Maybe it's a throw back to the larger wind disturbances mono-hulls create. A cat (particularly an uber-efficiently winged one) isn't going to disturb as much air and slow you down unless you are right on top of each other.

As far as devices go, these guys have flip down tablets bunjied to their chests...I would love to see what they are seeing on those displays! I'm also in the process of making a spandex device sleeve like they have so I can quit losing GPS units.



Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Carl] #264373
09/20/13 09:57 AM
09/20/13 09:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Carl
Excellent race by team O yesterday --one small constructive criticsm. {see disclaimer} --When team O is ahead and has better speed why are they splitting so far to opposite sides of the course. }


Tidal Current.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264374
09/20/13 10:26 AM
09/20/13 10:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
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Did anyone go both to ACWS in Newport, and the finals in NZ, and care to compare the experiences? I'm pretty sure at least Jeff is in that group.

Mike

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #264376
09/20/13 10:38 AM
09/20/13 10:38 AM
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Carl Offline
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Hey Todd

Wow -I,ll never forget the stay snapping and mast falling over while we were on the Cape Hatterous leg of the W -1000--MILE RACE --talk about tidal currents WHEWW ! The Gulf Stream and Labadore currents colliding at the Cape.

Racing in Charleston harbor -Long Island Sound --Newport harbor -Corpus Cristi TX -the huge tidal currents along the N Carolina Virginia coast --or Tybee Island -etc --just like San Fran all have similar tidal currents. Most of us have sailed in something similar and can relate to it--Sarnia -Port Huron MI --Great Lakes where Lk Huron flows into the St Clair River at the Blue Water bridge --lots of frieghter traffic too--has a 5 mph current --it is brutal--you have to hug the shore.

Let me put the importance of a loose cover another way ---If you were on the last race of a major regatta and had to beat one boat to win the regatta --would you split tacks and sides of the course on the last upwind beat providing the only possible means of that one boat passing you --a fluke windshift ie , --or would you loosely cover the one boat staying between him and the finish ?

The only gain made by team N during the entire race yesterday -race 12 --was when they split tacks and sides of the course --lETS HOPE THEY DON'T OPEN THE DOOR WHEN AHEAD AGAIN .

Jake made a good point of how readily the boat behind splits and often goes to the less favored side instead of trying to mix it up and grind the other boat down to close the gap.

good observation and spot on .



Last edited by Carl; 09/20/13 10:39 AM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264378
09/20/13 11:00 AM
09/20/13 11:00 AM
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I wondered the same. That has to be a tough call: go for the known better current, or tack and cover.

Mike

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264380
09/20/13 11:08 AM
09/20/13 11:08 AM
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
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Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by catman
Has anyone checked their TV schedule to see if it's on NBCS today? I checked right before I left the house this morn and it didn't show up.

Yes


Hmmm. I have Direct tv and at 1pm it still does not show up.


Have Fun
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264382
09/20/13 11:17 AM
09/20/13 11:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
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Looks like NBCsports is streaming it today.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: catman] #264386
09/20/13 11:57 AM
09/20/13 11:57 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by catman
Has anyone checked their TV schedule to see if it's on NBCS today? I checked right before I left the house this morn and it didn't show up.

Yes


Hmmm. I have Direct tv and at 1pm it still does not show up.


DirectTV has NBCSN (channel 220 on my system)...but it's not showing up in my guide either.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Carl] #264389
09/20/13 12:05 PM
09/20/13 12:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Carl
Hey Todd

Wow -I,ll never forget the stay snapping and mast falling over while we were on the Cape Hatterous leg of the W -1000--MILE RACE --talk about tidal currents WHEWW ! The Gulf Stream and Labadore currents colliding at the Cape.

Racing in Charleston harbor -Long Island Sound --Newport harbor -Corpus Cristi TX -the huge tidal currents along the N Carolina Virginia coast --or Tybee Island -etc --just like San Fran all have similar tidal currents. Most of us have sailed in something similar and can relate to it--Sarnia -Port Huron MI --Great Lakes where Lk Huron flows into the St Clair River at the Blue Water bridge --lots of frieghter traffic too--has a 5 mph current --it is brutal--you have to hug the shore.

Let me put the importance of a loose cover another way ---If you were on the last race of a major regatta and had to beat one boat to win the regatta --would you split tacks and sides of the course on the last upwind beat providing the only possible means of that one boat passing you --a fluke windshift ie , --or would you loosely cover the one boat staying between him and the finish ?

The only gain made by team N during the entire race yesterday -race 12 --was when they split tacks and sides of the course --lETS HOPE THEY DON'T OPEN THE DOOR WHEN AHEAD AGAIN .

Jake made a good point of how readily the boat behind splits and often goes to the less favored side instead of trying to mix it up and grind the other boat down to close the gap.

good observation and spot on .




I completely understand the validity of a cover in match racing, but the gains are relative to the losses and if you are skipping a 3 knot current in a boat doing 30 knots just to cover, then you are not taking advantage of the gains you earned as a lead boat. Alot of folks criticizing these tactics forget that the exceptional boatspeed moves this into a new realm. Your thought process works great at 1/3 the speed, but if you use it at this speed ,you better sail flawlessly i.e. never come off the foils because that alone will cost you 3 to 4 boat lengths. If you do cover and make a small mistake you just lost your lead, and will most definitely have the peanut gallery as well as your boss questioning why you didn't split and take advantage of the 3 knot current boost. If you use the "triple the wind speed" formula for the current, that's a 9 knot speed advantage over the boat on the other side of the course. That's huge. They've got the patterns there covered and have weighed the loss vs. gain scenarios. Not to say they can't be caught out, but this isn't club racing. In the same vein, you better get your current call right and get the advantage or the cover is the safe bet. TNZ should be playing it safe and Oracle should be all in, "safe" hasn't seemed to work so well for them.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #264390
09/20/13 12:06 PM
09/20/13 12:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by catman
Has anyone checked their TV schedule to see if it's on NBCS today? I checked right before I left the house this morn and it didn't show up.

Yes


Hmmm. I have Direct tv and at 1pm it still does not show up.


DirectTV has NBCSN (channel 220 on my system)...but it's not showing up in my guide either.



Mine hasn't showed up for awhile. When they did the guides, I guess they thought this would be wrapped up.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264394
09/20/13 12:29 PM
09/20/13 12:29 PM
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I checked my schedule using a web browser and a phone app and it's there, might want to check that. You can power cycle (unplug) your DVR, let it reboot and that should force a schedule update.

Race 13 starts today at 13:15 PDT (8:15 NZST, 22:15 CEST) Race 14 at 14:15 if needed.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264396
09/20/13 12:30 PM
09/20/13 12:30 PM
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Race 13 - 1:15pm (+0.3 ebb - 23.3 knot wind limit)
Race 14 - 2:15pm (-1.7 ebb - 21.3 knot wind limit)


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264398
09/20/13 01:04 PM
09/20/13 01:04 PM
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Hard to tell from this picture but looks like Oracle has installed their sprit pole
There was light winds forecast last night for today but wind has been building.

Interesting.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #264399
09/20/13 01:17 PM
09/20/13 01:17 PM
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Dalton watching this one on the sidelines.

Wind 270 at 8.4 kts, 11.0 kts peak


Philip
USA #1006
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