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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265326
09/26/13 03:45 PM
09/26/13 03:45 PM
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Greenville SC
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Is these races, humans were still a huge factor. Getting a computer to be a team of humans around a course would be a MAJOR feat.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265327
09/26/13 03:54 PM
09/26/13 03:54 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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If it ever comes public out that Oracle did have some type of computerized foil trim system, and that's why all of a sudden they got fast going upwind, I'll bet we'll hear a lot more about it!


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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265328
09/26/13 03:58 PM
09/26/13 03:58 PM
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"Is that "Sailing" or is that HAL running a sailboat?"

I think we're along way from that. Remember you've often stated a preference for Boeing over Airbus.

Last edited by pgp; 09/26/13 04:00 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265330
09/26/13 04:24 PM
09/26/13 04:24 PM
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Yup, and that's exactly why. Airbus wants the computers to fly the airplane, I'll show you how that worked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEH7OpnA-I4

In the name of Safety, they have tried to change the Pilot's job from flying the airplane by hand, to loading a computer, and then let the computer fly it, because, computers NEVER make mistakes, right?

Ask that guy operating the Airbus in the video above, he was the lead test pilot on the (then) new Airbus A320 doing a low pass at the Paris Airshow! After the low pass, the pilot was supposed to climb, go around again, and come back to land, but he could NOT override the computer to make the airplane "Go Around".

The airplane said, "Nope, we are going to land now..." I guess it didn't know the runway was BEHIND it!


Blade F16
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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: pgp] #265331
09/26/13 04:30 PM
09/26/13 04:30 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp

"Is that "Sailing" or is that HAL running a sailboat?"

I think we're along way from that.


No, we are not. The technology exists right now, what we need to decide is, how much technology are we going to allow onto the boat? If it turns out that Oracle did indeed install some type of computer system that was trimming the foils for them, well, what's next?

I guarantee you a computer controlled wing and rudder trim system will be better than a human, right up until some programming error causes it to land in the trees, just like that Airbus!

Oh, bye the way, right now, Boeing and Airbus are working with Federal Express on developing a pilotless Cargo airplane, a huge drone if you will. Here, read this, from an aviation info web board:

"Shlomo Tsach, IAI’s director of flight sciences, told the Jerusalem Post the technology already exists to fly passengers without pilots but "the world is not yet ready to be flown without a pilot at the stick.” However, he said, a study by Boeing suggests there’s no such resistance to sending packages without direct human intervention, so the idea of a pilotless cargo plane is gaining some traction."

Will a pilotless Passenger airplane be next?

Would you buy a ticket on such a plane?


Blade F16
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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265332
09/26/13 05:12 PM
09/26/13 05:12 PM
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
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"All that stuff underneath that makes them so fast in heavy wind, just adds drag in light air."

Seems to me the only extra stuff is the horizontal wing on the rudders. The "foil" is just a bent dagger board. If they straightened out the foils would they be any longer than the optimized normal board? Isn't there an AC72 formula rule that constrains the foil length, straight or bent?

As Jake suggested, could they have swapped to straight boards in a light air race? Wouldn't the bent "foiling" dagger be pretty feeble going upwind compared to the old straight or banana boards they started with?

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265333
09/26/13 05:20 PM
09/26/13 05:20 PM
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
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I want to see the old USA 17 trimaran getting a retrofit so it could foil! At 90 feet with a 223 foot rigid wing it would be a sight to see. Maybe the 17 tons would need special foils.

[Linked Image]

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: David Parker] #265337
09/26/13 07:21 PM
09/26/13 07:21 PM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by David Parker
I want to see the old USA 17 trimaran getting a retrofit so it could foil! At 90 feet with a 223 foot rigid wing it would be a sight to see. Maybe the 17 tons would need special foils.

[Linked Image]


Melvin and Morelli stated somewhere that they had looked at making the tri foil but that the most lift they figured they could generate was realistic something like 30% - 50% if they went nutz with it (I'm not sure the exact numbers...but it was something like that).

the funny thing is that these boats are probably faster than that tri monster.


Jake Kohl
Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265339
09/26/13 07:29 PM
09/26/13 07:29 PM
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Northfield Mn
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JFC....
Was this America's Cup a massive endorsement for us or not? I'm going to go with yes.
I was in the Post Office today chatting to the postmaster of a post office in the middle of dirt worshipper nowhere. He was watching some of it, and was really into it. That is so completely unbelievable to me. While it will be extremely short lived, at least we're being noticed, and NOBODY gave a crap about the AC up until now in the general population.

So the kiss what if there was some auto adjusting trim of the board AoA? What if there was a dumb butt wand doing it like a moth?

I'm with Jake on this, that this is not a case of purely automation making the boat go, but helping it along. Keeeriist, some people just want us to sit in caves terrified of the sun. None of the upper echelon motor sports, (which this is, just not of the internal combustion variety), would be where there are without some sort of automation taking some of the control. F1, MotoGP, WRC, etc... all have something going on to keep it on the bleeding edge. I don't want to see an Airbus either, but I don't see it going that way, and if it did it would be at the events own peril. Completely because it would take the part that makes the viewer and enthusiast interested, and that is humans doing human things. Their trials, tribulations, and triumphs are what make it interesting and engrossing. There's no hero's with two robots duking it out on the course. Nobody gives two shakes of a limp dick about watching two computers play a perfect game of chess in .000003 seconds. I can promise you, that if a fully automated race were even the slightest bit interesting to the general public, we'd be seeing it already in some form or another.

So calm the kiss down, and think rationally, and let's not go backwards.

I can't speak to costs, a half billion dollars isn't **** to more people, corporations, and countries than you can imagine. The AC isn't a game for you or I to play, its for that top 1% who know how to play.


I'm boatless.
Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265345
09/26/13 07:58 PM
09/26/13 07:58 PM
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SE MI / NE IN
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Top 1%? Top 0.00001%!


Jeff R

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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265346
09/26/13 08:04 PM
09/26/13 08:04 PM
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The top 1% can't afford this. Neither can the top 0.0001%...

I don't want drones the size of Boeings flying over populated areas.

I agree that no one wants to see an AC with computer-controlled boats. The engines in the 33rd were bad enough, at least they learned that lesson.

I don't ever want to see the AC dumbed down to a one-design event. Coming from one of the biggest proponents of SMOD, that says a lot.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 09/26/13 08:09 PM.
Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265347
09/26/13 08:06 PM
09/26/13 08:06 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Karl, you seem to be the only one wrapped around the axle on this! YOU need to calm the Fk down! Is it snowing up there already? Is that what's got you drinking early?

All I'm saying is, it's now up to Larry to decide which way it goes, I think he's got 3 choices:

1. Keep it exactly the same, same boats, same rules, same two or three teams who can afford it, if that.

2. Allow it to develop further. Maybe bigger and/or faster, more intricate and more automated systems to control the foiling, with computers, gyros, all that stuff Boeing's got sitting on the shelf today for a 787, installed on a flying boat. Hell, with enough time and money, they could probably just put floats on a 787, leave it on autopilot, and smoke everyone around the course, while some kid with a joystick sitting on the dock does the driving.

3. Dial it down a notch or two; use smaller boats, spend less money, but bring in more entrants.

So, as I said, and for YOU Karl, ALL I SAID, was, Where do we draw the line, when it comes to automation and sailing for the America's Cup?

How much is enough, how much more is too much?

Nobody is talking about going back to wooden J boats, or living in caves, or even northern Minnesota.

My personal opinion, automated hydrolically powered, computer controlled foils is fine with me, but all the steering and sail (wing) trimming should be 100% Human controlled, by hand/winch, not computer controlled or assisted.

And if they want to continue to foil, they should come up with a much better elevator control system than canting the daggerboard/foils back and forth. That's way too much work! It's like tilting the wings of an airplane up and down! Even the Wright Brothers knew that was nuts and used a canard, which would be like bow foils, which might work too. If they used small elevators on the rudders with internal hydraulic actuators, just like all the flight controls on an airplane. It would work much better/safer/cheaper/easier/faster.


Blade F16
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Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265349
09/26/13 08:26 PM
09/26/13 08:26 PM
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BTW, I hate the hydraulics on principle, and wondered more than once why they grind with their arms and not their legs, which have substantially more power and stamina.

Of course, without hydraulics, I doubt they would have been as fast, especially through maneuvers.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 09/26/13 08:30 PM.
Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265367
09/27/13 03:02 AM
09/27/13 03:02 AM
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Brisbane Queensland- Australia
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The AC certainly showed how to publicise to a world audience a breathtaking, high speed race series. The onus is on sailing in general to follow through by getting the public up close to the action, having onboard cameras, screen effects to explain the wind, tides, shifts, course boundaries etc. The question is how to do that efficently for A class, F16 & 18 and other classes, while realistically being limited to a shoestring budge using for example, radio control drones, go pros, realtime tracking and special courses where the races go past the audience.

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265378
09/27/13 08:06 AM
09/27/13 08:06 AM
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Victoria Australia
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Originally Posted by brobru
.... what did we learn from AC2013? ....


1/
close to shore racing is far better than 20 miles out to sea crazy
& yes I was at Fremantle in Western Australia when we defended the cup way back when..... watch them sail out, go the pub and watch the racing on TV, then go back down to the dock and watch them sail back in..... if you were still capable of walking grin
Being able to watch most of the racing from the shoreline is a MAJOR plus.

2/
Catamarans are far more exciting than monohulls to the non sailing people..... its a speed thing wink
As to whether they stay with cats or go for tri's is anyone's guess.

3/
the AC45 series is a MUST HAVE.
every premier class of sport has a support class that's "up there" with the big guns, Forumla 1, MotoGP, & even Nascar use other classes to support the main events, it also provides a stepping stone for those not quite prepared to go all the way wink
whilst the 72' aren't practicle to be packed up and moved from country to country for a true 'global' race series, the 45's are. We need to exploit this support class to the max in order to promote the big toys..... a similar global series like the F1's and MotoGP's have would be a huge boost to all forms of sailing.

4/
Use of WWW. is a huge plus smile
whilst I've only seen a few news highlights on the idiot-box, there has been very little if any actual coverage on TV here in Australia via free to air TV, thankfully YouTube and the live ability kept many of us well informed and up to date..... I must also say one member of this forum should be thanked for his endless supply of info throughout the entire series, a job well done !

5/
The classes need to be separated.
I still fail to understand how the US boat lost points from a so-called separate series infraction of the rules....
That's like a driver stuffing up in the nationwide series and being penalised in the sprint-cup series ..... doesn't happen !!!!
Separate them..... what happened during the 45's series should have stayed with the 45's series

6/
Keep up with technology but control the level of its use.
If I had told you 5 years ago we'd be racing for the America's Cup on carbon fibre catamarans with shrink-wraped wings for sails and we'd be above the water and not actually in it you'd have told me to step away from the crack-pipe... so its not a case of where will we be in a year or 2 but where do we want to be in 5 ~ 10years time ???

7/
the human element.....
As far as I'm concerned, the day we hand over a racing boat/car/plane or whatever to a tech-wiz with an xBox controller we have lost the true meaning of sport.
Human error and indeed human input is what any sport requires, be it on a mass produced hobie or a multi million dollar boat....
Take away the human and it may aswell be a app for the iPad, then and we can all play instead of dreaming of what could be, yeah that will give me inspiration to try harder..... NOT !!!





Having said that......
For me the 45's were an awesome series, close racing and a largish fleet of boats all out there to win, personally I'd like a similar format for the cup, ofcourse I can understand that these big boats need far more room and so 1-on-1 racing is a safe way to go..... but I wonder how much more exciting the main event could have been if ALL the 72's raced at the same time ......
How many of us would love to see Oracle, Artemis, Luna-Rossa, & Emirates all running down the same leg of the course at the same time ???

now that would be some serious racing to see wink



till next time we wait n see.... in the mean-time, haul to thar wind and hold ya water

wink





Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: Timbo] #265387
09/27/13 08:58 AM
09/27/13 08:58 AM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Timbo

The point is, if all you need the humans on board for is to grind up some hydrolics, well, what's the point? Hire a bunch of professional bicycle racers, put foot cranks on the pumps, sit them down in the wells and let them peddle up some PSI, then let the computers fine tune the foils, trim the wing and tweak the rudders too...

Is that "Sailing" or is that HAL running a sailboat?


How is that different from the last several iterations of the AC? Most of those dudes were grinders, too? Just mechanical grinding with one or two guys actually manipulating the sail trim. Don't they have two or three "trimmers" on the 34 AC boats which were actually adjusting sail/wing/foil trim?

And on the use of foot-grinders, didn't the French try that once? I think it was problematic to switch from forward to backward pedaling (back in the mechanical grinding days) when switching gears or sitting reverse in the 2-person coffee grinder station.

Now that things could be pneumatic or hydraulic, you may not need the "geared" stations (which would require reverse pedaling) and perhaps this concept should be looked at again.

Of course, after pedaling like Lance for a few minutes to then hop up and sprint across the trampoline might make for some comedic pictures. But it WOULD free up the operator's hands for other controls (sheet handling, etc)

I'm going to miss "sex-breath"...

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 09/27/13 09:09 AM.

Jay

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: pgp] #265388
09/27/13 09:01 AM
09/27/13 09:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by pgp

"Is that "Sailing" or is that HAL running a sailboat?"


HAL might be "running" the boat in terms of executing commands and making suggestions, but I suspect humans "sailed" that boat by adjusting the wing, foils and that skinny dude steering.

HAL provided all the intel (laylines, distance to tack, general wind/tide conditions, etc.) but someone had to make the actual call.

Could this be set up totally autonomous? Probably. I think that's where you'd draw a line somewhere...


Jay

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: waterbug_wpb] #265390
09/27/13 09:15 AM
09/27/13 09:15 AM
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Naples, FL
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besides San Fransisco, are there other areas where the weather is reasonably predictable?

I thought Plymouth, England was somewhat predictable for wind that time of year... Surely with all this computing power someone has developed a list of global locations with a good probability of certain conditions (like winds 15-25 kts, wave conditions not destructive, etc.)


Jay

Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265394
09/27/13 09:33 AM
09/27/13 09:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I remember when the AC was in Fremantle, AUS, they had a fairly reliable wind they called "The Doctor" blowing about 15+, daily about 2pm I think.

DC built a heavy air boat just for The Doctor, but on the light air days, he got crushed.


Blade F16
#777
Re: what did we learn from AC2013? [Re: brobru] #265397
09/27/13 09:46 AM
09/27/13 09:46 AM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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Computers trimming foils is the same as computers trimming wings. Air VS water but has the same effect on the boat.

The 2 AC 45s that were on display in the cup park and the village had been modified to foils but the boards were still the class boards. But there were 2 fore/aft servo boxes right behind the front cross bar. I think these were the two O had modified for foil testing.

I don't have a problem with hydraulics but I want the controls to be manual.
As far as the tablets and GPS. No problem. They are not sailing the boat. It is just a way to supply information.

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