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Re: !) [Re: tshan] #267190
11/21/13 02:09 PM
11/21/13 02:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by tshan
Two posts above yours is a link to an actual Olympic hopeful talking about getting up to speed on the boat. I'll take their words over yours.


That article makes my point perfectly,it states nothing about boat problems except maybe the mast, which has been remedied and says they are learning the boats by TRAINING.Seems the same as what I said vs. Mark's trying to find fatal, Olympic ending, catamaran doomed issues with everything. According to your (Tshan) post #267176 we are on the same page. Maybe I wasn't clear.
You also need to remember for these sailors the N-17 is a tool, it's what they HAVE to be on to compete in the Olympics. As opposed to a F-18, A cat or H-16 sailor where their boat is their baby and they want to brag on their baby.
Quote
"This summer we had some hard lessons which manifested themselves through big crashes which reminded us to start more controlled and work our way into pushing the boat hard. By the end of the week we were doing over 20 knots downwind on the ocean side of Miami Beach in big ocean swell. Talk about adrenaline and needing to have that teamwork and communication factor dialed. The best part of this campaign is how much fun we are having together training and racing. Not only is the sailing challenging, but every day it's fun and exciting as we work through problems on the boat, always trying to figure out how to make things faster and smoother. Part of our training also had us learning how to fly…"


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267194
11/21/13 03:45 PM
11/21/13 03:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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jollyrodgers  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
Those 17s look like pretty high performance cats to me.
It will be interesting to see how many male drivers will medal.

From my own experience i would speculate that the N17 would be more fun to go off the wind in a breeze with some winglets or a T rudder. Controlled skimming. The skill it takes to balance that boat w/o winglets may just add to the competon, however.
Forecast for wind in Rio for the olympics?

Re: !) [Re: jollyrodgers] #267197
11/21/13 04:07 PM
11/21/13 04:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Those 17s look like pretty high performance cats to me.
It will be interesting to see how many male drivers will medal.

From my own experience i would speculate that the N17 would be more fun to go off the wind in a breeze with some winglets or a T rudder. Controlled skimming. The skill it takes to balance that boat w/o winglets may just add to the competon, however.
Forecast for wind in Rio for the olympics?


12


Jake Kohl
Re: !) [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #267200
11/21/13 04:23 PM
11/21/13 04:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
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tshan  Offline
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Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
we are on the same page. Maybe I wasn't clear.


We are. I was replying to Mark, but didn't do so until after your post.


Tom
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267211
11/21/13 08:13 PM
11/21/13 08:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Mark,
From all the owners that I have talked to the boat is great.

The only issue I see is the sometimes lack of stability.. getting too much lift off the boards.. The problem is that the boat was designed just before a MAJOR shift in foil technology before that last AC. Keep in mind that curved foils have been used for years on other boats like the M20 and nobody seemed to complain then. The olympic folks are just pushing it harder trying to get max lift.

I have spent 3 years on a Nacra F20c and this year I put some winglets on the rudders. Wow what a difference. I can push it harder, get more lift from the boards and have more control. I can tell you.. once you sail a boat with lifting boards you won't go back..


Re: !) [Re: Mark Schneider] #267213
11/21/13 08:30 PM
11/21/13 08:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
OH... and the grand plan... to move from Mixed to Men's and Woman's Multihulls... Up in smoke... Turns out... (and as I argued with JW at the time) was just nothing more then the propaganda used by OUR representatives to sell the god for saken Mixed disipline..

We were screwed by our own volition and short sighted leadership. Sigh....


Confirming for me why I don't waste time on this website anymore. Mark - kiss you. You still don't know what the hell you're talking about. But I love how you revise history to make it look like you're prophetic. I mean, pathetic.

Meanwhile, happy sailors sail on.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: !) [Re: pitchpoledave] #267215
11/21/13 08:47 PM
11/21/13 08:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Dave, I agree about the boards... I sailed Chris Brown's DNA and wow... what a ride.... It was on par with my Tornado.

YMMV but the " the sometimes lack of stability.. getting too much lift off the boards.." is not what you want for the Olympics. You have 10 hour long races... I want the random chance factor to go to zero as best as possible. One "sometime lack of stability" is not the standard for an Olympic boat. One unlucky wave should not determine a medal.
Sure, everyone deals with the same boat... but the boat should at least match the Tornado with respect to the luck factor.

I agree, there was a major shift in technology and the bottom line is that boat is not right. (eg... "sometime lack of stability" ) the question is... why has the boat not been modified to get it right....ISAF did this with the Bethwaite 49ner. Why not the Nacra 17.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267216
11/21/13 11:08 PM
11/21/13 11:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 195
White Bear Lake, MN
h17racer Offline
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h17racer  Offline
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Posts: 195
White Bear Lake, MN
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267227
11/22/13 08:38 AM
11/22/13 08:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
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Posts: 3,969
I think that this is outstanding news. Gives a level of stability for the sailors, MNAs and NACRA (who, by the sounds of it in multiple threads on this forum, as well as word on the street regarding parts availability in general, really need to get their act together in terms of support).

The boat was selected by the sailors at the test event. I don't think there was a serious MNA on the planet willing to vote against the direct result of the sailors. If nothing else, they could blame the sailors and wash their hands of it politically (this of course, is all speculation).

If there are design flaws that can be addressed with rule changes, the sailors will drive that. Even if nothing changes, it should be the most exciting boat at the Olympics.

And, the kite thing is a no-brainer, assuming the fad hasn't expired by the time of the next quad. Finns have an awful lot of political support, so it will take a major change to ever see them go away. Of course, I'm on record for saying the same about the Stars (actually, I still can't believe that actually happened, or that Brazil didn't pull it back in with the extra host medal)...

Mike

Re: !) [Re: John Williams] #267234
11/22/13 09:25 AM
11/22/13 09:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
OH... and the grand plan... to move from Mixed to Men's and Woman's Multihulls... Up in smoke... Turns out... (and as I argued with JW at the time) was just nothing more then the propaganda used by OUR representatives to sell the god for saken Mixed disipline..

We were screwed by our own volition and short sighted leadership. Sigh....


Confirming for me why I don't waste time on this website anymore. Mark - kiss you. You still don't know what the hell you're talking about. But I love how you revise history to make it look like you're prophetic. I mean, pathetic.

Meanwhile, happy sailors sail on.


+1

I like the unfiltered JW.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: !) [Re: h17racer] #267236
11/22/13 09:42 AM
11/22/13 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by h17racer
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU


Did you not read Luke's blog? Did you see how far down the boards are!? And that vid was posted almost a year ago! I think most of the top N117 teams would see that and politely say... hey dumb dumb... There is no doubt in my mind that the so called "instability" is not an issue for the Olympic hopeful's.

B!tching about the platform...really? Damn!t I let myself get sucked into the Schneider vortex!



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: !) [Re: David Ingram] #267238
11/22/13 10:44 AM
11/22/13 10:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by h17racer
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU


Did you not read Luke's blog? Did you see how far down the boards are!? And that vid was posted almost a year ago! I think most of the top N117 teams would see that and politely say... hey dumb dumb... There is no doubt in my mind that the so called "instability" is not an issue for the Olympic hopeful's.

B!tching about the platform...really? Damn!t I let myself get sucked into the Schneider vortex!



The description of the video says that was their first training session in the boat....


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267240
11/22/13 11:19 AM
11/22/13 11:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
He He...

I did not say the center boards need to go forward... Bert Did
I did not say the boat needs winglets... Bert Did.
I did not say the boat has occasional stability issues Dave did.
The Canadians were using the carbon stick for the first time and it is different dynamically then the alu stick. I infer the boat has stability issues with all their crashes and they are working through them... basically Dave is right.

All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/22/13 11:24 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: !) [Re: Mark Schneider] #267242
11/22/13 11:31 AM
11/22/13 11:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


Jake Kohl
Re: !) [Re: Jake] #267244
11/22/13 11:41 AM
11/22/13 11:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


JEEEEZZZ! Isn't that the point (Lock in the design) of the Olympic status to begin with?
Mark, What are you really after here? Start shite, get the T back in, bitch just to bitch,Just come out with it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: !) [Re: Jake] #267245
11/22/13 11:44 AM
11/22/13 11:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote

It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


That can't be the answer... they fixed the 49ner with multiple fixes in the first and second Olympic cycle. ISAF and Nacra control this class and not the sailors... so the responsibility is really up to them.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267246
11/22/13 11:53 AM
11/22/13 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
Mark I nominate you to talk to ISAF and find out why the DONT DO IT NOW!!!

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267247
11/22/13 11:55 AM
11/22/13 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Here's a video of some guys who seem to have figured it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52xllb112c

And, of course there's a song for that, featuring Supercat. Too bad they didn't use it for their F17 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tw0O8DBgb0



Blade F16
#777
Re: !) [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #267248
11/22/13 12:31 PM
11/22/13 12:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


JEEEEZZZ! Isn't that the point (Lock in the design) of the Olympic status to begin with?
Mark, What are you really after here? Start shite, get the T back in, bitch just to bitch,Just come out with it.


My money is on none of those. He hinted at it earlier in the thread.

Mike

Re: !) [Re: brucat] #267254
11/22/13 01:16 PM
11/22/13 01:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


JEEEEZZZ! Isn't that the point (Lock in the design) of the Olympic status to begin with?
Mark, What are you really after here? Start shite, get the T back in, bitch just to bitch,Just come out with it.


My money is on none of those. He hinted at it earlier in the thread.

Mike


Please quote it. If I have to read that babble again my head will explode.
Glazed over eyes come standard with a Schneider diatribe.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
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