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Re: !) [Re: Mark Schneider] #267257
11/22/13 01:51 PM
11/22/13 01:51 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote

It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


That can't be the answer... they fixed the 49ner with multiple fixes in the first and second Olympic cycle. ISAF and Nacra control this class and not the sailors... so the responsibility is really up to them.



You fix things mid-cycle that lead to mechanical failures in the boat because boats breaking under normal sailing condition is a crappy way to lose a race and a really good way to get a bad name for your event. For instance, when your masts are breaking, you build an interim aluminum mast until you can get the carbon one designed and built properly.

You DON'T do a quick fix on things dealing with handling and performance because A) all of the boats are the same and nobody is gaining an advantage over other teams because of it B) it doesn't affect the quality of the racing, and C) making this kind of change resets the training regimen and causes teams a lot of lost time to relearn to sail a boat with different handling characteristics.

Frankly, if the boats are difficult to sail well, it leads to more exciting racing to watch as evidenced by the recent America's Cup.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: !) [Re: Timbo] #267258
11/22/13 02:29 PM
11/22/13 02:29 PM
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maui
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a video of some guys who seem to have figured it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52xllb112c

And, of course there's a song for that, featuring Supercat. Too bad they didn't use it for their F17 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tw0O8DBgb0


it looks like in the sailing video; the boat getting up to high speed then is looking like it will go to foiling like in the AC, but then the boat blows off the extra lift and slows down to like 6knts boat speed.

So it's counter intuitive to penalize a team that is trying to shift gears and having the boat go into a "restart" mode. Even though sailing skill will undoubtedly compensate for this eventually.... They will have to pick a mode that works for the boat. High mode with 2 in the trap had it's problems in that vid.

Re: !) [Re: David Ingram] #267261
11/22/13 02:54 PM
11/22/13 02:54 PM
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Posts: 195
White Bear Lake, MN
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by h17racer
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU


Did you not read Luke's blog? Did you see how far down the boards are!? And that vid was posted almost a year ago! I think most of the top N117 teams would see that and politely say... hey dumb dumb... There is no doubt in my mind that the so called "instability" is not an issue for the Olympic hopeful's.

B!tching about the platform...really? Damn!t I let myself get sucked into the Schneider vortex!



Yes Dave, you got sucked in.....chill...TG

Re: !) [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #267265
11/22/13 04:18 PM
11/22/13 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Please quote it. If I have to read that babble again my head will explode.
Glazed over eyes come standard with a Schneider diatribe.


We all have our hot buttons...

Based solely on observations of other "diatribes" posted here over the past few years, I'd say everyone knows that two of Mark's are: the Portsmouth rating system and... Mixed Multihulls in the Olympics. My guess is that's what's fueling the rant.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/22/13 04:22 PM.
Re: !) [Re: jollyrodgers] #267266
11/22/13 04:21 PM
11/22/13 04:21 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a video of some guys who seem to have figured it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52xllb112c

And, of course there's a song for that, featuring Supercat. Too bad they didn't use it for their F17 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tw0O8DBgb0


it looks like in the sailing video; the boat getting up to high speed then is looking like it will go to foiling like in the AC, but then the boat blows off the extra lift and slows down to like 6knts boat speed.

So it's counter intuitive to penalize a team that is trying to shift gears and having the boat go into a "restart" mode. Even though sailing skill will undoubtedly compensate for this eventually.... They will have to pick a mode that works for the boat. High mode with 2 in the trap had it's problems in that vid.

The crew did a big trim on the kite just as they cleared a wave, causing all the bow lift. Remedied by smoother control.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267268
11/22/13 04:27 PM
11/22/13 04:27 PM
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Northfield Mn
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btw, I believe the boards are also shorter now. The originals were popping pretty frequently and they shortened them to lessen the load.

Might be a fuzzy memory issue, or heresy as well. I don't remember 100%


I'm boatless.
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267320
11/25/13 03:44 PM
11/25/13 03:44 PM
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maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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don't know anything about changing board sizes.
However, after watching most of the video from typing nacra 17 into youtube….i am ready to race. ha ha.
Anyway it looks like my original comment about the video above has flaws; sorry for that.
The edit to "slow mo" of the boat lifting up made me perceive a huge loss in speed. Actually it looks like they didn't loose that much to the boat below them. That boat could well have been the reason the blue boat headed up in the gust instead of bearing way off like they needed to. Heading up causes any cat to lift the bows and that seems to be multiplied with the curved boards. Blue just flogged the sail for a sec, held onto the boat, and took off with out too much slow down.

In one video, a hot shot was saying that they stand further forward because of the curved boards. If they lift the boards up partially for heavy wind, they loose that extra lift and have to stand all the way back to fend off the pitchpole. There is one video of an orange team pitchpoling 2 or 3 different times while sailing with the boards in the partially up mode. If they just use them in down position, maybe by just bearing off at the perfect time in the perfect way----then easing it back up jus right, it would likely be fast to the downwind buoy; in everything except racing in max wind conditions where they seem to have to go partial up mode.
A situation that winglets help with. For me, that winglet is like a leg to stand on. You can really rely on it's stability. You are standing on that little wing that has constant lift even when power in the sails is varied. Maybe it's a training wheel, but it brings a higher level of control in the dicy situations.

There isn't much question that a decision would have been made to keep the rudders simple before they released the boat. It's still a fast cat that looks better than all the other ships on the olympic course, and will take real skill to win races on. The boat is very camera worthy in the videos. -not a fan of the single hulled, except when they are definitely faster, or for surfing/jumping.

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267337
11/27/13 01:25 AM
11/27/13 01:25 AM
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San Diego, CA
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Pressure Drop Offline
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Put the Tornado back in and be done with it.

Faster, stiffer, and even 10-15 year old Marstrom components remain competitive.

Oh, by the way, Marstrom's carbon masts don't break from being sailed. They're designed to be sailed. Try sailing a Nacra 17 in 25 knots.

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267339
11/27/13 07:54 AM
11/27/13 07:54 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I'm pretty happy that we simply have a multihull back in the Olympics. I'm never going to compete on that level so the only thing I care about is that it looks interesting to John Q Public. We've got curved boards that somewhat tie into the America's cup...a little buzz about foiling and popping out of the water if you lose stability on the boat. As far as the mixed team things goes, I don't see a shortage of participation so I'm not sure what the problem is there either.

You guys have some really short memories.

The mast thing should be corrected now...they rushed the boat to production and had an issue...big deal. I'm sure if we went back to the first time the Tornado hit the water as an Olympic boat we would find flaws there as well. As far as stiffness goes...really? An 11' wide boat (also with aluminum beams) was stiffer than a 8.5' wide boat?


Jake Kohl
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267354
11/27/13 05:53 PM
11/27/13 05:53 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Jake, it's a Nacra. I'm pretty burned by them right now but telling me any Nacra product is stiffer than a Marstrom product is a joke...despite the reduced beam. Nacra is owned by a great group of sailors with little engineering background, and you can see that in the final result of their products.

Yet I haven't heard a single Olympic hopeful complain about the boat or really any complaints about build issues, but these are still brand new boats (give them another year). Reality is you need a trust fund to be competitive and if you're going to be a serious contender you aren't on here complaining about the hand you've been dealt.

Last edited by samc99us; 11/27/13 05:54 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: !) [Re: samc99us] #267362
11/28/13 11:24 AM
11/28/13 11:24 AM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Sam, c'mon. You had an I20 and you have an Infusion. You can't tell me you don't see the dramatic stiffness difference between the two. The I20 was old school hand laid and the Infusion built with vacuum bagging. Adding another 2.5 feet on a boat that still has (old school) aluminum beams takes away considerably from the stiffness.


Jake Kohl
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267365
11/28/13 03:35 PM
11/28/13 03:35 PM
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San Diego, CA
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Oh my, vacuum bagging!

If you are honestly trying to compare the stiffness of an F18 infusion to a Marstrom Tornado, you should see somebody and get your head checked.

Sincerely, somebody who has sailed and won on both.

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267370
11/28/13 05:18 PM
11/28/13 05:18 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Unless they start using pre-preg, nomex, and autoclaving the N17, there's no way it'd be as stiff as a Tornado.


I'm boatless.
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267372
11/28/13 06:57 PM
11/28/13 06:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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The 17 is plenty stiff enough. That is not the be all and end all. The 17 design is way better than the T..sorry guys..

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267373
11/28/13 08:01 PM
11/28/13 08:01 PM
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San Diego, CA
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The 17 design is "way better," says the Nacra dealer.

What makes it better? C foils that throw the bows out at high speeds with no trim tabs on the rudders for fore/aft balance?

Or maybe the high construction quality and decades of composite experience, leading to a highly reliable two-part carbon mast?

Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267374
11/28/13 09:41 PM
11/28/13 09:41 PM

M
MN3
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MN3
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M



was watching them train several days last week in all wind conditions.

seemed completely controllable (up and downwind)
at no time was the bow sticking in the air

talked with Robbie about the boat for a while... he seemed to love it and was impressed with it...

Last edited by MN3; 11/28/13 09:42 PM.
Re: !) [Re: catandahalf] #267381
11/29/13 09:12 AM
11/29/13 09:12 AM
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brucat Offline
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The criteria for being selected for the Olympics did not include being better than every other boat on the planet. In fact, there were some criteria designed to reign it in so the costs didn't exclude countries.

Mike

Re: !) [Re: Pressure Drop] #267395
11/30/13 08:08 PM
11/30/13 08:08 PM
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Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
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I will tell you what makes it better.. 30 years of engineering and R&D. Yes I agree that prepreg autoclave construction will result in stiffer hulls but its a very minor thing. The Tornado is like a truck.. great in a straight line but it tacks like a truck. Obviously you have never sailed a modern boat.

Re: !) [Re: pitchpoledave] #267410
12/01/13 11:44 AM
12/01/13 11:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
The Tornado is like a truck.. great in a straight line but it tacks like a truck. Obviously you have never sailed a modern boat.


Beam and minimal rocker have trade-offs.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: !) [Re: Pressure Drop] #267414
12/01/13 01:58 PM
12/01/13 01:58 PM
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New Hampshire, USA
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Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
Put the Tornado back in and be done with it.

Faster, stiffer, and even 10-15 year old Marstrom components remain competitive.

Oh, by the way, Marstrom's carbon masts don't break from being sailed. They're designed to be sailed. Try sailing a Nacra 17 in 25 knots.

As much as I am a supporter of the Tornado and still sail mine every chance that I get, I think that there is a multihull in the Olympics is a win for everyone. That hard work was done by people such as John Williams who dedicated much time and effort out of his life to fight this battle. My hats go off to all of those who made this happen. It seems clear that if an eleventh event is added it will be kite-boarding so we have a mixed multihull and that is fine with me.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
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