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2022 Charlotte Harbor Regatta, Feb. 4-6, 2022
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2022 Charlotte Harbor Regatta, Feb. 4-6, 2022
by bglesun. 10/15/21 12:26 PM
2022 Charlotte Harbor Regatta, Feb. 4-6, 2022
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Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: mbounds] #269682
02/25/14 12:27 AM
02/25/14 12:27 AM
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catandahalf Offline
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How about Tom Whitehurst's kinetics at the port end of the line in a Midwinter Sunfish fleet... talk radical pin end starts! Yea Brah!

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Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: H17cat] #269693
02/25/14 08:20 AM
02/25/14 08:20 AM
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brucat Offline
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Conventional wisdom has always been that kinetics don't work on cats. I've always found this hard to believe in all conditions, but because it's been so restricted by the RRS (and frankly, I've had bigger issues to worry about in my racing development), I wrote it off years ago.

Maybe this is an area where our non-cat sailors can help us. Jeff, have you dialed this in enough on cats to give a seminar?

Mike

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: brucat] #269699
02/25/14 10:50 AM
02/25/14 10:50 AM
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Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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The "conventional wisdom" is borne out of monohulls - the techniques used in multihulls are limited and used almost exclusively off the wind.

For example, monohulls have multiple ways to violate Rule 42 upwind - rolling, pumping, bouncing - as OTW judges, we're taught to focus on the upper leech of the main and look for the "flick" caused by pumping/bouncing. You won't see that in a multihull with a fully-battened main and lots of leech tension. Without the flick, you're not propelling the boat.

On the other hand, downwind on a non-spinnaker multihull (Hobie 16) is ripe for pumping and ooching. Especially since the class rules modify RRS 42:
Quote
27 - PROPULSION
RRS 42.2 is deleted.
RRS 42.3 is deleted and replaced with:
42.3 Exceptions
(a) To initiate or maintain surfing or planing, the
crew may use sudden forward body movement,
stopping abruptly (ooching).
(b) To initiate or maintain surfing or planing, the
crew may fan any sail by pulling in and releasing
the sheet or boom or by vertical or
athwartship body movement (pumping).
(c) After a tack or gybe when the battens are
not parallel with the sail, the crew may pull
in and release the mainsheet or boom to invert
the battens.
(d) The crew may roll the boat by use of body
movement, repeated adjustment of the
sails, or steering (rocking).
(e) The crew may make repeated forceful rudder
movements to turn the boat (sculling).
(f) A boat may reduce speed by repeatedly
moving her helm.
(g) Any means of propulsion may be used to
help a person or another vessel in danger.
(h) To get clear after grounding or colliding with
another boat or object, a boat may use
force applied by the crew of either boat and
any equipment.

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: mbounds] #269703
02/25/14 12:33 PM
02/25/14 12:33 PM
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srm Offline
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Quote
(a) To initiate or maintain surfing or planing....,


Planing... on a Hobie 16...??? smile smile

sm

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: H17cat] #269707
02/25/14 03:24 PM
02/25/14 03:24 PM
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brucat Offline
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Matt, I'm referring to the conventional wisdom of the top cat sailors I had access to while learning to race. I was never involved with racing monos until I got more serious about RC and judging/umpiring.

To be more specific: the cat sailors around here always told me it was illegal and doesn't work on cats anyway.

So, what works (and is legal)? I'm sure this would be easier to answer with video. If kinetics are a differentiator at these events, we'd best start teaching our sailors the following ASAP:

(1) How and when to do the legal, effective stuff well.

(2) How to recognize how and when the illegal stuff is being done so it can be protested successfully by the competitors.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 02/25/14 03:30 PM.
Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: brucat] #269727
02/26/14 06:20 PM
02/26/14 06:20 PM
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mmadge Offline
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One last thought on why North Americans did poorly (that was not my observation,realistically I thought they did well).Jeff Alter was the top North American,Jeff is 50 + years old and has not seriously raced the Hobie 16 since 2004.In fact my sources tell me he has not been on a 16 since that time.Look at the average age of the Top North Americans.The sad fact,and believe me it hurts me to say this is the Hobie 16 Class is aging.
Now look the New Caledonia team ,and as the guy that was on the Race committee stated (well you can read his post on what he thought of them),the fact of the matter is they are all pretty young.Not sure how many people have Raced in a Major Laser Class Regatta lately but most of the really good guys are Young ,**** and push the Rules very hard. they are also very good at inventing ways to make the boat go faster using Kenitics.In fact ,at the 2009 North Americans I had a guy from Puerto Rico crew for me (had also previously crewed for Enrique and Legal),this guy did more sail pumping and Oohing then I was comfortable with. Not saying this is right,just saying that is how it is with some younger sailors.Hence why the Laser Masters Class is so much more popular with the aging Laser Sailors. The Lasers Master Class is more like your normal Hobie 16 Class,where for the most part the Sailors are pretty well behaved ,and obviously Older.
When Brett Dryland won his first Worlds he was 18 years Old.I don,t see any Young Hobie Sailors here in North America that are close to World Class Level.Apperantly as one guy posted that is a good thing.
Hey My days of visioning of winning the Worlds have long since come and gone.Is there going to be new young blood come up and do it from North America?as much as I would like to see that happen,I and not optimistic.When I started sailing the 16 back in 1976 it was a fast,sexy looking craft that was fun to sail and go fast,especially coming from sailing on Windmills,Lasers ,Albacores and Lightenings.Time has moved on and the Young Sailors of today have so many other choices for fast attractive looking Classes.I now own a 49er myself and have a list an arms length long of kids that want to crew on it or buy it.
Unfortunatly this is not only the situation here in North America ,but Colby (World Champion) himself has stated even in Australia the Class is dying a Slow death.
I would be interested to know what they are doing in New Caledonia and if in fact the Class is thriving?




Last edited by mmadge; 02/26/14 06:30 PM.
Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: mmadge] #269729
02/26/14 07:48 PM
02/26/14 07:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by mmadge
Jeff Alter was the top North American,

As I mentioned before, Jason Hess / Irene Abascal (Guatemala) were the top placing North Americans (5th place). As for age, Jason and Irene are in their 20s.

Originally Posted by mmadge
Jeff is 50 + years old and has not seriously raced the Hobie 16 since 2004.In fact my sources tell me he has not been on a 16 since that time.

Jeff raced on a 16 at the 2005 North Americans (Ventura, CA)and at 40th Anniversary Regatta (Dana Point, CA 2008). He was campaigning a Tiger during that time period, too. However, since Hobie Sr.'s illness started in 2009, the family has "circled the wagons" to support him and make sure the grandkids spend time with him.

But your point is well taken - Jeff Alter has not been on the boat in a long while - and yet he was the second-highest placing North American at the worlds. It just goes to show what a formidable competitor he was/is. He's also feeling his age - in speaking with him at the awards banquet, he was surprised at how sore he was.

Originally Posted by mmadge
The Hobie 16 Class is aging.

That's been going on for a long time. It's not just Hobie 16s, either. It applies to almost all catamaran classes in North America, with the exception of perhaps the F16.

Originally Posted by mmadge
Now look the New Caledonia team, the fact of the matter is they are all pretty young.
Younger than most of the North Americans for sure, but they certainly aren't kids. Most are in their 30's.

Originally Posted by mmadge
Not sure how many people have Raced in a Major Laser Class Regatta lately but most of the really good guys are Young ,**** and push the Rules very hard. they are also very good at inventing ways to make the boat go faster using Kenitics.

And that's why they have on-the-water Rule 42 judging.

Originally Posted by mmadge
In fact ,at the 2009 North Americans I had a guy from Puerto Rico crew for me (had also previously crewed for Enrique and Legal),this guy did more sail pumping and Oohing then I was comfortable with. Not saying this is right,just saying that is how it is with some younger sailors.Hence why the Laser Masters Class is so much more popular with the aging Laser Sailors. The Lasers Master Class is more like your normal Hobie 16 Class,where for the most part the Sailors are pretty well behaved ,and obviously Older.

The Laser is a very physical boat - especially at the top end of the fleet. Just look at what kind of physical shape Anna Tunnicliffe is in. The division between Masters/Open in to give the older, less physically fit sailors a chance to compete on an even playing field.

The Laser Masters fleet is no better behaved than the Open Laser fleet - I've judged both and if anything, the Masters are harder to police. There is truth to the saying that age and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance. The Masters have learned where the edge of the rules are and push to the limit, but rarely over. The younger sailors haven't learned where that edge is and it's obvious when they step over it.

Originally Posted by mmadge
When Brett Dryland won his first Worlds he was 18 years Old.I don,t see any Young Hobie Sailors here in North America that are close to World Class Level.Apperantly as one guy posted that is a good thing.

I don't think it's a good thing. I think there are bigger fish to fry - like keeping the class alive.

There's an age gap in sailing - we're good at getting kids involved. We had a Hobie 16 Youth North Americans in 2013 with 32 competitors. But we lose them between the ages of 21 and 30something - if they come back at all.


Originally Posted by mmadge
I would be interested to know what they are doing in New Caledonia and if in fact the Class is thriving?

I think one of the reasons New Caledonia has been so dominant is the same reason the Latin Americans are: they've picked one boat (Hobie 16) and they concentrate on it. In the US and Canada, we're dying the death of 1000 cuts by splintering into dozens of classes.

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: mbounds] #269730
02/26/14 08:51 PM
02/26/14 08:51 PM
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mmadge Offline
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For any future references I am referring to The United States and Canada when I say North American.Yes I know Matt that I am wrong again in leaving out those other Countries,but I am too lazy and too bad a typewriter to keep typing Canada and the United States.
Yes no denying Jeff Alter was a formidable competitor,but still not convinced that bodes well that the torch has not been passed on to some younger ,fitter stronger guy.This Class really should favour younger guys. Keep in mind my def,n of young is anyone under 40 (I am old )
Having sailed in both Laser Open and Laser Masters Class,there is no doubt in my mind that the Laser Masters are much more respective on the course.That is not to say they are any less competitive.There is just a whole lot less Bullying and yelling and upwind kinetics (really our bodies can,t do what Scheidt and Slingsby do)Actually I hate to use that term Bullying because I don,t really believe that even relates to sailing.
BTW as a plug,we are hosting the Laser Great Lakes Masters here in Thunder Bay this Summer ( if we ever lose all the ice).Right here on beautifully Lake Superior,.Charter Boats are available at a very low cost.
IMO one of the best ISAF Presidents we had was Paul Henderson ( not the guy that scored the famous goal in 1972) another Canadian.He was very supportive of Catamarans in the Olympics because he believed it to be the purest form of sailing.In other words he argued there was very little Kenitics ( by the same reasoning he disliked Board Sailing with all the pumping)Well quess what,kinetics has become very important aspect of sailing even a Hobie 16..Pat Porter and I have had some great discussions about this.Tim shuwalow described in an interview I had with him about how active he was with the main and body movements.Unfortunatly most of us Older Hobie guys are lazy cleat the main type sailors.
A very Old Sailing World Article once stated that all the new Classes are actually hurting Sailing and eventually only a few really truly One Design classes would survive and the rest would fall off by the way side. It is true a whole lot have fallen by the wayside,but it seems like new ones just replace them.If that is the case that the 16 is the only catamaran class in New Caledonia,then that clearly would be an advantage to attract and keep the top sailors.

Last edited by mmadge; 02/26/14 08:59 PM.
Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: H17cat] #269731
02/26/14 09:34 PM
02/26/14 09:34 PM
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brucat Offline
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In a perfect world, all we need are Waves, H16s and F18s. Of course, without development, we would only have H16s (of that list)...

Anyway, the problem of retaining 20-something sailors is a problem across the sport, in both cats and monos. There have been lots of ideas of how to fix this, but nothing that's really taken off yet.

Probably the one class that seems to have thrived in this age range (around my neck of the woods) is the F18s.

If you think H16 or Laser sailors are bad about kinetics, try judging an Opti regatta. They learn it way, way too early...

Mike

BTW: Before any of you get nutty about the first line, it's meant to be dripping with sarcasm. Mostly...

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: brucat] #269732
02/26/14 09:45 PM
02/26/14 09:45 PM
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mmadge Offline
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Best time to learn about Kinetics.Hey watch youg Laser Sailors bring there boat back to shore when there is no wind.Sailing dinghs and cats should be a physical, Athletic Sport.

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: H17cat] #269734
02/26/14 09:52 PM
02/26/14 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mmadge
...Sailing dinghies and cats should be a physical, Athletic Sport.


I agree with that, but at some point, it becomes air rowing and laughable.

Personally, I think all kinetics should be illegal, because it is very difficult, even for trained judges, to be in the right place and to always call it right, which makes it ripe for abuse. The last thing the sport needs is more excuses for sailors to hate what is happening around them, lose protests, etc. We don't have the critical mass to be losing anyone else, or scaring away any newbies with this nonsense.

Mike

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: brucat] #269735
02/26/14 09:56 PM
02/26/14 09:56 PM
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mmadge Offline
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Go to the Finn Class Rule,unlimited pumping and ooching in winds over a certain speed 10 knts I believe ( I am sure if I am wrong someone will correct me)

Last edited by mmadge; 02/26/14 09:58 PM.
Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: H17cat] #269736
02/26/14 10:31 PM
02/26/14 10:31 PM
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My 2 cents and that is all I have...the only way to build the top of our class(es) is to build membership...look at the pure numbers....say we have 1000 members (I think that is high) and we have 20 top teams that is 40 members so that means one potential top team for every 50 members...also, it is the casual/social racer that keeps the class alive so, in order to increase the pool of top teams to train in big fleets we have to build the membership pool from which to draw them...one other thing, we Americans work too much, most other countries have ALOT more time to train or just be on the water....it is not until later in our American dream lives do we have more time to play...

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: MASantorelli] #269743
02/27/14 01:50 PM
02/27/14 01:50 PM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline OP
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Correct, and that is when we need to take part and give back. Youth teams will only grow with our support and volunteer time.
www.sailsandpoint.org

Re: Hobie Worlds [Re: H17cat] #269744
02/27/14 03:39 PM
02/27/14 03:39 PM
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SE MI / NE IN
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Just a quick observation/question: How many competitive guys/teams out there have young families?

I sorta do (4 kids, ages ranging from 9-18), and I find it to be a real PITA to coordinate sailing time with all the other 100's of commitments. Few if any of the people I sail with on a regular basis are in the same situation. Most either have no kids to begin with or are empty nesters. When a younger sailor gets married or has kids, they seem to drop off the face of the earth.

I'm doing my best - my oldest sailed with me at Americas, and #2 is showing some real enthusiasm now that he's old enough not to get scared. #1 has even mentioned looking at the college sailing team next year when he goes to school.

Quick edit: My avatar pic is with #2 at his 1st regatta up on very cold Lk Charlevoix in early June last year.

Last edited by rehmbo; 02/27/14 03:42 PM.

Jeff R

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