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Square Top Sails #269906
03/06/14 02:34 AM
03/06/14 02:34 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
member
Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Gents,

I know this has been a topic of the past, but it was before my time, and I am interested in the advantages of higher aspect square top sails on mozzies.

There are a number of Arrows at Speers Point that have been using square tops for a while seemingly to good effect on an old design. The Arrows maintained the same sail area but took some from the back and added it to the top. The square tops can be hoisted on their old masts, and although some boats have gone for shorter booms the rig seems mostly unchanged.

Apart from looking good, I imagine it would reduce drag and give more control in varying conditions. Can someone who has one tell us what it is like or could the committee give me some idea as to what happened with this proposal?

Regards,
Luke

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269908
03/06/14 02:54 AM
03/06/14 02:54 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
One South African mosquito sailor has been playing with it for a while now .... BARNEY 2015

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

bit more about it on the ....

African Mozzies on F.B.

and at the

African mozzies HOME page

I did have the details of the sail cut but have misplaced it.... will add it when I find it
wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269909
03/06/14 03:19 AM
03/06/14 03:19 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Very Nice,

Thanks for the prompt reply Kingy. The it seems to be working pretty well from the pictures, and looks great. I would be interested to see how it works in comparison to a conventional sail.

I was trying to work out how it would effect the centre of pressure and the effect on going to windward but I might have to do some research on that front. I might try to ask the SA boats what they think of it.

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269910
03/06/14 03:21 AM
03/06/14 03:21 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Posts: 108
Port Hedland
I also noticed that the FB photo on that SA site has a square top leading the others.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269947
03/06/14 03:55 PM
03/06/14 03:55 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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Matt_Stone  Offline
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Posts: 416
we have dicussed it before.
Speak to Tim Shep, I think cos we don't get enough leech tention and the mast is too flexible for the sail. As the committee was saying to me we are trying to keep the mossie original, if u want to modify a mossie go F16 rules

Matt

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269948
03/06/14 03:57 PM
03/06/14 03:57 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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Matt_Stone  Offline
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Everytime we modify the mossie so does the yardstick. THe hobies complain that we use updated sail material and dropped the weight over the years where the hobie as one design only have added a cunno on the boat.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269950
03/06/14 04:05 PM
03/06/14 04:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
F
fast energy Offline
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fast energy  Offline
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F

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
Would this be something Australian Mosquitos class could adopt or should South Africa and Australia have the same rules
Square top sails may be a way to get more interest in from future sailers into this class
The arrow class said that the square top sails were easier to control in windier conditions there for safer ( I believe this they be pushed by the safety issue , which has led to more sailers in class )
This is only a through be me only
Once again not trying to cause any conflict
Arrow info from a couple of arrow sailers which may not be correct


Brett Kelly
Fast Energy
Gold Coast
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269953
03/06/14 04:58 PM
03/06/14 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 81
To windward of you!
Sixth Element Offline
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Sixth Element  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 81
To windward of you!
Our mast section will be a big issue, they are too flexable to be effective with the square top. Also as mentioned you need to get more leech tension therefore would need bigger mainsheet systems.

The cobra's are currently trying to go down this path and so far only one boat has been trialing it as far as i know.

Last edited by alegayter_mossie; 03/06/14 05:00 PM.

"Sixth Element"
1782 MK2 w/spinnaker.
Lake Bonney Y.C.
National Sec. / S.A President / S.A Measurer / Commodore LBYC
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269955
03/06/14 05:28 PM
03/06/14 05:28 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Gents,

Again, I guess we could ask the SA chapter how they dealt with the handicap and Hobie 16 conflict, but from recent handicapping results it seems more on who you know and what way the wind is blowing than materials and design. With the massive differences already between the two classes in hull and sail they seem to already be on opposite ends of the spectrum depending on the weather conditions. Personally I didn't join mozzies to sail against Hobies, but because it seemed a great social class and I wanted to sail against other mozzies.

I think the modern look would help attract new sailors to the class without any great difference to the boat, as it looks good and modern for something designed in 1960s. I also think that in light to moderate winds the sheeting systems people are using now would provide sufficient leach tension, and above that it you would probably want it to twist off. The Arrows use a PT mast section, and they have only recently gone to diamond wires.

I am not trying to upset the apple cart, but after the experiencing the differences between sailing with and without a kite, and people stating this kept them in the class, that this would perhaps be another step forward. Here in NSW I have heard of the demise of Cobras, Maricats and Stingray classes, and the measures the Arrows have taken to survive. We have seen the effect of Taipans and recently Vipers and A class on mozzie numbers. Through the efforts of the class, mozzies seem to be on the increase, and my reason for bringing up this topic is that I think this is another option to continue that trend. I think that Mozzies could become one of the last classes that people can build at home and sail competitively with far more expensive classes.

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269956
03/06/14 05:35 PM
03/06/14 05:35 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
On the mast flex issue, another Arrowism is a diamond wire on the front of the mast to provided stiffness.

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269957
03/06/14 05:53 PM
03/06/14 05:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Dazz  Offline
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Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
https://drive.google.com/folderview...ing&tid=0Bw5frPV9W0wuV0JsV2xPZDhXaWM

this is one of the albums from the recent cobra nats, all but one boat is now using square top mains.

looking through the days there was one broken mast, seems typical for the class. almost as bad as paper tigers!


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dazz] #269970
03/07/14 02:36 AM
03/07/14 02:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
journeyman
Dave M  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Are people aware that you can get the same size mast section that also has internal reinforcing ribs to stiffen the section.

I believe it is used for cross beams on cobras and hydra cats.

Dave 1724


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269971
03/07/14 04:31 AM
03/07/14 04:31 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Rye, Victoria
air_apparent Offline
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air_apparent  Offline
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Posts: 80
Rye, Victoria
I agree that we should look at this option. try something similar to the cobra as I don't think they altered their rig at all if any, we need to think about the next 40 years of the mosquitos class and this would bring the class into the current trend for all new the classes, look at the tornados, 49ers,Taser all have updated their rig to fat heads, and for that matter most keel boats now run fat head sails, lets not think about what we want to sail but what the next generation want to sail if we want the mosquito to attack new blood.


Gordon Hyde
Air Apparent
1520
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269973
03/07/14 05:58 AM
03/07/14 05:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 175
Melbourne
Nic M Offline
member
Nic M  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 175
Melbourne
I tend to agree as long as the changes are simple and dont cause a lot of extra expense, apart from a new sail (always up for a new one). The Mossie is relatively inexpensive and a great boat, just got to keep that theme and not obsolete boats with a rule change.......

....I'll leave the technical merits up to the experts.....I'd love to hear their views!!!!

Definaty worth some consideration.......just as long as we don't "break" a great class.....



Nic Maan
Sanity 1815
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269975
03/07/14 06:46 AM
03/07/14 06:46 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Glad we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages and at least consider the option. I look forward to getting some technical details too.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269997
03/08/14 02:36 AM
03/08/14 02:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 224
Lake Bonney, SA
dkd Offline
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dkd  Offline
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Lake Bonney, SA
maybe talk to Peter at Alegayter as I know they have been talking about square top for a SA Cobra


Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269998
03/08/14 03:12 AM
03/08/14 03:12 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
I sailed at Speers Point day and asked the Commodore about the Arrow conversion to square tops. He said that every state got one made up, and then they were tested by various sailors. At the next Nationals they lay them beside each other and compared their merits before making a decision. Within 2 years everyone had got one, even the skeptics.

Looking at the Arrows; even with their weird swinging centreboard and hull shapes, the sail has modernised their appearance and they have seen an increase in fleet numbers and interest as a consequence. They think the jury is still out as to the performance but the common belief is a small improvement.

I guess I just want to ask the question as to whether this is something we should consider doing? I messaged the South African Mozzies to ask their opinions and any trials they have conducted, and I will forward what they reply.

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #269999
03/08/14 04:10 AM
03/08/14 04:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 70
Port Vincent, SA
Hack Offline
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Hack  Offline
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Posts: 70
Port Vincent, SA
Hi all,

I'm enjoying this discussion. I think I speak for all the PVSC mozzie sailors (and as of today we have a new one!) that the reasons we like this class are:
- Flexibility; cat, sloop, spinnaker options
- Bang for buck; great performance at family friendly price
- Great sailing community

In my opinion, any changes to sail shape (which I support, in theory) need to be thoroughly investigated by the relevant state/national bodies and any future changes be made in the most COST EFFECTIVE manner.

As a relative newcomer (14 months) I think the (potential) recognition of the spinnaker fleet is a great step forward, and sail shape change appears to be a logical step. Put a timeline on it though, eg; plan do develop the sail over the next 2,3 or 4 years and only introduce when its as close to bulletproof as you're ever going to get.

My two-bobs worth.



Hack

'Goodnight Nurse'
#1769
&
#1636
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Hack] #270067
03/09/14 08:59 PM
03/09/14 08:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Hack
..... sail shape change appears to be a logical step .....


From what I saw at the Vic state titles its already moving away from the traditional pinhead sails....
There was a few boats that ran this shape, this one being the most clearly obvious with the others less noticeable but enough to be seen as a non traditional cut.

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #270068
03/09/14 09:20 PM
03/09/14 09:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by air_apparent
.... lets not think about what we want to sail but what the next generation want to sail if we want the mosquito to attack new blood....


What I witnessed at the titles suprised the hell out of me, as I left the rescue boat and waded back to the beach, one of the beach goers remarked on how lovely all the mosquitos were, she then asked what all the other boats racing with them were......
I remarked that they were mostly mosquitos with a few arrow catamarans, the arrows have an "arrow head" symbol, she then said but what are the other ones that haven't got the mosquito word on them ???

So from a non sailing perspective, if you want people to know "what boat is that" then this is probably one hell of an advertising tool that we are missing all together
shocked
[Linked Image]


even at a great distance & back to front.... the type of boat is clearly visible

[Linked Image]
Ask any non sailing person what boat that is and I'll bet 99% will say its a mosquito.... wink
the seed is planted, they'll have a boat type they can identify with instantly, that might help if they take up sailing wink

attracting new blood for the swarm could be as simple as a single word...
wink


If we are to upgrade to a fat-head or square top sail then while we are at it then maybe the word mosquito should be a major part of that plan....

just typing out-loud here

wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

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