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Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dave M] #270163
03/13/14 03:24 AM
03/13/14 03:24 AM

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thricebitten
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Hi Dave,

a section that fits the current rules is obviously simpler, but if options where looked at, stiffness and weight are the most important from a performance point of view. Are any figures available for these sections? Also of course price, I doubt that any will be as cheap as our current section at $260, but any idea on prices?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270165
03/13/14 03:56 AM
03/13/14 03:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
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Dave M  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Hi Gary .
As far as weight goes I 'do believe that a deeper mast section ,say up to 110 deep would not add very much to the weight.
Some may argue that the larger section may create more leverage but this can only be found out through trial and error.

Always keep in mind that any mast that is chosen for square top application needs to support two on trap.
Dave.


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270196
03/13/14 04:58 PM
03/13/14 04:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
No Turbulence Offline
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I heard a rumour there where some Mosquitos in the past running Hydra masts which had the internal ribs (they were not legal so not many people knew,imagine sailors pushing the rules! :)). Maybe they are the same section as the Mari cat.

Ross
No Turbulence
1774


No Turbulence

1774
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: No Turbulence] #270207
03/14/14 12:35 AM
03/14/14 12:35 AM

T
thricebitten
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thricebitten
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Hi Ross,

these are the only restrictions on masts,

11 MAST
11.1 The mast shall be made of an extruded aluminium alloy.
11.2 The maximum height of the top of the mast including all permanent fittings shall not be greater than 7360 mm above the top of the main beam.
11.3 The forestay attachment point shall be 5280 mm 100 mm from the top of the main beam. If more than one potential forestay attachment point is provided then all such points shall fall within the measurement tolerance.
11.4 Section size: Width 59 mm min; 63 mm max. Depth 86 mm min; 91 mm max.
11.5 Tapered mast permitted, but when used tapering shall only be above the 5180 mm mark.
11.6 Mast rotation control must be fitted

So internal ribs are no problem, as long as external dimensions fit sizes above, which are easily checked.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Matt_Stone] #270211
03/14/14 04:52 AM
03/14/14 04:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Pirate  Offline
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Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Matt_Stone
the wording on my and my bro sails costs from Irwin about $140


goodall designs said about ~$250....

big difference
eek


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270212
03/14/14 05:08 AM
03/14/14 05:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Pirate  Offline
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Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by beckit 1824
..... the response from Kevin- the owner of the Square top in South Africa..........


next time your emailing him........ could you please ask

A/ if he's modified the jib as yet and if so to what dimensions he went to ?
B/ If the jib is unchanged, does he plan a re-cut in the future to suit the square top ?
C/ if there is a website that has the Sth African mosquito rules and regulations ?
D/ would he be willing to share some of the close-up photos he may have taken of his modifications ?
&
E/ can you link this thread to him so he can see where and what we are discussing, it would make life so easy if he joined up too wink

smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #270237
03/14/14 05:13 PM
03/14/14 05:13 PM

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thricebitten
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thricebitten
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Originally Posted by PIRATE
Originally Posted by Matt_Stone
the wording on my and my bro sails costs from Irwin about $140


goodall designs said about ~$250....

big difference
eek


Other option if you have a mylar sail is to talk to your local signwriter, as vinyl lettering sticks ok on mylar. So could be a option and if your putting it on yourself, it comes spaced (by peel of top tape) making it easier to put on than sailmaker sticky back.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270249
03/14/14 07:34 PM
03/14/14 07:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
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Dave M  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Just a comment on price for an updated mast for a square top sail.

This is a ball park figure; The same size mast with internal reinforcing currently stands at approximately $850-900 dollars.(a discount would be probable if bought in bulk ).

this would require a commitment from the Mossie association or enough members willing to go down that parth as a new batch would have to be made.

The second option would be to change the building restriction rules to allow a deeper mast section to be adopted. This I presume would take some time to happen. Having to be proposed at the AGM.And someone who can test out a new rig that can be adopted.

One of the most common sections that would be suitable is 110 deep and sixty seven wide. With a 1.9mm wall.(used on some nacras) I haven't asked the price of this section but it safe to presume that it would a couple of hundred less than the other option.

Projecting into the future, if this upgrade did go ahead today the initial take-up would be minimal but in time second hand sails and masts may become available to those that don't want the larger outlay of a new rig.

There are other issues that others may want bring up but that is enough now from me.
Dave 1724


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dave M] #270255
03/15/14 02:41 AM
03/15/14 02:41 AM

T
thricebitten
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thricebitten
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted by Dave M
Just a comment on price for an updated mast for a square top sail.

This is a ball park figure; The same size mast with internal reinforcing currently stands at approximately $850-900 dollars.(a discount would be probable if bought in bulk ).

this would require a commitment from the Mossie association or enough members willing to go down that parth as a new batch would have to be made.

The second option would be to change the building restriction rules to allow a deeper mast section to be adopted. This I presume would take some time to happen. Having to be proposed at the AGM.And someone who can test out a new rig that can be adopted.

One of the most common sections that would be suitable is 110 deep and sixty seven wide. With a 1.9mm wall.(used on some nacras) I haven't asked the price of this section but it safe to presume that it would a couple of hundred less than the other option.

Projecting into the future, if this upgrade did go ahead today the initial take-up would be minimal but in time second hand sails and masts may become available to those that don't want the larger outlay of a new rig.

There are other issues that others may want bring up but that is enough now from me.
Dave 1724


Thanks Dave appreciate the info, but just for a matter of interest, current Mossie mast has a 1.6mm wall, so obviously the Nacra option would be considerably heavier. Any idea of what the wall thickness of the (Maricat) reinforced mast is?

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270256
03/15/14 03:12 AM
03/15/14 03:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
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Dave M  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Hi Gary.
Are you sure about that wall thickness. The reason I ask is that I recently bought a new mast from the association stock and the wall thickness is 2mm.
This mast was one of the batch that Matt Stone brought up here with him.
Dave


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dave M] #270257
03/15/14 03:48 AM
03/15/14 03:48 AM

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thricebitten
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thricebitten
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Ok Dave,

i've been back out with the digital vernier calipers (not engineering quality) admittedly I was working from memory, a dangerous passtime at my age wink , but that was my recollection, from when I did a lot of measuring when we had the thin web ones.

The three off cuts I found from different masts, including non anodised section, all measured between 1.6 to 1.8 mm.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270259
03/15/14 04:25 AM
03/15/14 04:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
journeyman
Dave M  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
I've just done a recheck of the wall thickness measurement and there is a slight variation on the offcut that I have.

the vernier callipers that I have suggest a fly#%@t over 2mm and measured against a ruler at just under 2mm.
Dave


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dave M] #270260
03/15/14 05:25 AM
03/15/14 05:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Pirate  Offline
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Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Dave M
..... This is a ball park figure; The same size mast with internal reinforcing currently stands at approximately $850-900 dollars.(a discount would be probable if bought in bulk )......


shocked

but the other option we're forgetting & that's fairly cheap is.....

Originally Posted by Kevin from Sth Africa
I have
fitted a forward facing diamond (parrot perch) between the foot and the
hound.



This makes it very affordable in comparision to an entire new section ....

This means the association isn't left holding a bag full of mast sections .... and we keep new masts affordable at the same time grin

The mast regulations can basically stay as they are......

The smaller section remains a lightweight user friendly mast ....

I don't think I could right a boat with a heavier duty or larger section mast .... am I alone ???? ... blush



Without seeing Kevin's forward facing diamond setup, I'm sure we have enough collective brain power to design a simple enough unit ourselves to overcome the stiffness issues with the square-top sail on current section even with its size limitations.....


wink



Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270261
03/15/14 05:32 AM
03/15/14 05:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by thricebitten
Originally Posted by PIRATE
Originally Posted by Matt_Stone
the wording on my and my bro sails costs from Irwin about $140


goodall designs said about ~$250....

big difference
eek


Other option if you have a mylar sail is to talk to your local signwriter, as vinyl lettering sticks ok on mylar. So could be a option and if your putting it on yourself, it comes spaced (by peel of top tape) making it easier to put on than sailmaker sticky back.



now why didn't I think of that..... blush


can someone post up the size of a single letter ... EG: the 'M' would be the largest "box dimension" I'd need to get the vinyl cuts done.

cool


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #270281
03/16/14 02:53 AM
03/16/14 02:53 AM

T
thricebitten
Unregistered
thricebitten
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted by PIRATE
Originally Posted by Dave M
..... This is a ball park figure; The same size mast with internal reinforcing currently stands at approximately $850-900 dollars.(a discount would be probable if bought in bulk )......


shocked

but the other option we're forgetting & that's fairly cheap is.....

Originally Posted by Kevin from Sth Africa
I have
fitted a forward facing diamond (parrot perch) between the foot and the
hound.



This makes it very affordable in comparision to an entire new section ....

This means the association isn't left holding a bag full of mast sections .... and we keep new masts affordable at the same time grin

The mast regulations can basically stay as they are......

The smaller section remains a lightweight user friendly mast ....

I don't think I could right a boat with a heavier duty or larger section mast .... am I alone ???? ... blush



Without seeing Kevin's forward facing diamond setup, I'm sure we have enough collective brain power to design a simple enough unit ourselves to overcome the stiffness issues with the square-top sail on current section even with its size limitations.....


wink



Pirate you forgot one important part in your quote from South Africa.

"The diamond does interfere with jib when tacking - not badly, but crew needs to help sheets through.
The mast is stiff enough between foot and hound, but bends a lot above the hound.

In medium wind, I can't get enough leech tension - I sheet in harder to close the leech, the mast bends, sail flattens and leech opens again.
Creases start forming - use a bit of Cunningham - mast bends and leech opens............."

Admittedly he said he's still working on it but, forward facing diamonds or **** perches have been tried on a number of classes masts over the years and most don't have them now. It's a very hard thing to get to work properly, particularly as a smooth flexible all round set up and adds alot of rig tuning complexity, many will want to set up a system that is adjustable on the water, adding further complexity.

Just my opinion, but I am not keen on a third diamond.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270287
03/16/14 04:18 PM
03/16/14 04:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
No Turbulence Offline
member
No Turbulence  Offline
member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
Hi Ross,

these are the only restrictions on masts,

11 MAST
11.1 The mast shall be made of an extruded aluminium alloy.
11.2 The maximum height of the top of the mast including all permanent fittings shall not be greater than 7360 mm above the top of the main beam.
11.3 The forestay attachment point shall be 5280 mm 100 mm from the top of the main beam. If more than one potential forestay

attachment point is provided then all such points shall fall within the measurement tolerance.
11.4 Section size: Width 59 mm min; 63 mm max. Depth 86 mm min; 91 mm max.
11.5 Tapered mast permitted, but when used tapering shall only be above the 5180 mm mark.
11.6 Mast rotation control must be fitted

So internal ribs are no problem, as long as external dimensions fit sizes above, which are easily checked.

Hi Gary I should have said "not legal at the time" the rules have been relaxed since.

Ross


No Turbulence

1774
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270290
03/16/14 04:47 PM
03/16/14 04:47 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
member
Beckit 1824  Offline OP
member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Ladies and Gents,

I can see from this thread that there is a lot of interest in this idea, and I know other people who have approached me privately about setting up their own square top as an experiment.

Being unfamiliar with the internal workings of the association, can we request it gets bought up at the next committee meeting for investigation? I am thinking this will take a few years to develop properly if we decide to go ahead, but would like to see a National approach to this to reduce individual costs and duplication.

Again, I think the Arrows did this pretty well and are happy with the end result, so happy to learn from others mistakes. How was the spinnaker introduced and accepted and can we follow the same process?

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270295
03/17/14 01:47 AM
03/17/14 01:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
journeyman
Dave M  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Your right Luke.

Through the power of the association and a co-ordinated and methodical approach, most of the foreseeable issue/development problems can be managed to transition to an updated rig.

Maybe a feedback process for members to provide constructive input into the development process.
Dave


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270326
03/17/14 03:18 PM
03/17/14 03:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 81
To windward of you!
Sixth Element Offline
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Sixth Element  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 81
To windward of you!
hi Luke, have a read of the national assoc. constitution which details how you put a motion forward in regards to changes to building regs/class rules.

I also agree with Gary with the comments on a third diamond i also am not keen on a forward diamond and i can see it will cause quite a problem with the sloop boats and jibs. I can see quite a few jibs being damaged due to it. (although that would be good for buisness)


"Sixth Element"
1782 MK2 w/spinnaker.
Lake Bonney Y.C.
National Sec. / S.A President / S.A Measurer / Commodore LBYC
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270332
03/17/14 06:19 PM
03/17/14 06:19 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
member
Beckit 1824  Offline OP
member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Gents,

See below the last reply from Kevin at the end of the questions:

A/ if he's modified the jib as yet and if so to what dimensions he went to ? Still work in progress.
B/ If the jib is unchanged, does he plan a re-cut in the future to suit the square top ? Yes we do but only once mast stiffness issues are sorted (hound hight might change)
C/ if there is a website that has the Sth African mosquito rules and regulations ? Not at the moment.
D/ would he be willing to share some of the close-up photos he may have taken of his modifications ? Of course I will put a few pics together and post them on the forum.
&
E/ can you link this thread to him so he can see where and what we are discussing, it would make life so easy if he joined up too. Will do!


Hopefully Kevin will join us on the forum soon.
Luke

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