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Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270333
03/17/14 08:59 PM
03/17/14 08:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
No Turbulence Offline
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No Turbulence  Offline
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Hi all,

I am no engineer, but I think I could stiffen the mast internally, with a round tube that would not add very much weight.

No Turbulence

1774


No Turbulence

1774
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: No Turbulence] #270334
03/18/14 02:39 AM
03/18/14 02:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Pirate  Offline
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Victoria Australia
sounds simple Ross, & here's the BUT !!!!

1/ as close as I can find 'size wise' that would be a neat fit is either 63mm diameter tube which is almost identicle to our mast sections external size, so it wont really fit in the front part of the curve that well or we could use the smaller 60mm tube which would be a neat fit......

2/ the 60mm tube is only available in a 2mm wall thickness so STIFF it would be for sure..... and heavy too !!!

3/ the tubes we could use are only available in 6.5 metre lengths unless we get a special order done and in a quantity....

4/ corrosion of the lapped alloys would be an issue over a period of time, more so for those of us that enjoy the swell and the salt !!!
Anodising would suit here but its all additional costs again...

frown


In all reality it would be simpler to buy a 2nd mast and cut off the bolt-rope part .... squish it down a bit and insert that onto your mast, you'd gain stiffness in a big way for realitive low cost in comparision to trying to retro fit existing tubes etc and get a neat fit.

wink









the truth of it all is we have a serious choice to make, we can upgrade to a larger alloy section such as the (example only) Tempospars model TS104 (104X73) clicky for picy

this section is "close" to what we have now all be it ever so slightly bigger....
Or we go to a much larger section as others have indicated....


Long term says we should probably even be considering the possibility of a carbon-fibre mast in the not to distant future, reason being..... I've already seen mention of the likelihood of alloy extrusion companies deleting many of their 'marine products' as the modern boats turn to the space-age materials for both strength and lightweight materials... If the alloy companies are thinking this way now then where will we be in a few years time....... that creek and looking for the paddle !!!!

Various other classes have already started the steps down this path, inparticular the smaller monohullthingies as their traditional sections have been dropped..... Tasers for example started the steps about 3 years ago..... taser forum discussion on carbon


Although we aren't at that point yet it has to be part of the development we should start considering now for the future, it would be a neat trick to adopt a mast section size now and have a carbon alternative that's almost identical to upgrade to when or if the call is made.....

I don't think we are quite ready for the cost of a carbon mast, as close as I can call it would be a ~$2000 commitment today, but in a few years time the costs would most likely come well down to an affordable range for most.



Questions....

1/ Hydra mast
a... is what size ?
b... and available from ??
c... is it that much stiffer to support the square top sail ???


2/ would superwing mast (eg-4.9 Tiapan superwing sloop mast) be an option ?
a... does anyone have a cost on one ?
b... is a winglet shape too modern for the mozzie ??
(I've seen 2nd hand Tiapan winglets selling for ~$550)


wink

















Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #270337
03/18/14 03:27 AM
03/18/14 03:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
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Qld
Hi Kingy.

Answer....

1/ Hudra mast
a...same size as mossie.
b...Brisbane cat centre. where else. Capral.
c...Same wall thickness.


Where I sail there are taipans and the mast that they use would be too large for the Mossie.

I do believe that the mast that is used on some Nacras is the best choice for an upgrade.( 110x67) Very similar weight and readily available. This section has already proven to support a square top sail.

Aluminium mast will be around for a long while to come. Cheaper and more durable than carbon.
Dave 1724


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270339
03/18/14 04:29 AM
03/18/14 04:29 AM
Joined: May 2007
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Hi All,
Niel Joiner and phillip WS have ordered special tube to and have currently have riveted up the front of the mast, Stiff yes, but very heavy. he only uses when sloop. We just have to watch the weight on the mast as the right ion moment will be wrong. in other terms the rig will be heavier than the hulls and will not the the bloody thing up after capsize.

The association already deals with carpal, will have a chat to them cos it may be the mossie section?

As a rigger myself tempo spars gets their mast from by looking at the pics are whale spars, shear line sections, keely marine supplies, and ozpars (where i work)
i do have all the info of the major mast building sections and info. ill have a looksy and see what i can come up with

Matt

Last edited by Matt_Stone; 03/18/14 04:34 AM.
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270371
03/18/14 04:35 PM
03/18/14 04:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
No Turbulence Offline
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Hi Kingy and all,

I was thinking 20-25 mm aluminium tube , with nylon spaces at the ends and maybe one in the middle, to stiffen the mast, no corrosion, little weight.
if we look out to future carbon might be the only type of mast we can get so maybe a square top sail and carbon mast is what we should be looking at.
Having said that,if we are only looking at changing the sail to attract new sailors, lets not forget there are still boats being built, we have continue to attract new blood,
I believe the best way to keep that momentum going is keep showing the great points of owning a Mosquito. like easy to move around on the beach, great to sail, with carry a range of crew weigh, can be sailed by almost any age, easy to rig (only needs one person). good fleets, very competitive in mixed fleets, great group of people that are willing to help, strong association, great website and this forum. so keep going to Regattas and show the strong points the class and get people on the boat and take them for a sail.(just my 2 cents worth)

No Turbulence
1774


No Turbulence

1774
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dave M] #270383
03/19/14 06:59 AM
03/19/14 06:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Dave M
.... Aluminium mast will be around for a long while to come. Cheaper and more durable than carbon......

As we move through the years the tech stuff gets significantly cheaper as the manafacturers chase new markets for their product, there is after all a very limited market place at the moment and once those sales are done the makers will need new customers to stay in business, its only a question of time before a carbon mast is going to be affordable for most.... when that will be exactly is anyones guess
confused


Originally Posted by Matt_Stone
.... I do have all the info of the major mast building sections and info. ill have a looksy and see what i can come up with....

Be interesting to see whats available in the 'off the shelf' product range, looking forward to the results of your "looksy" wink
One thing we haven't looked at yet is having our own dies made for a section we design purely for the class, on a visit to comalco many years back there was a heap of various shapes but none were available to be sold to the general public as other companies "owned" the dies, the dies weren't to be used for any other things except for their product and part of that agreement was that the dies never left comalco....
I have no idea as to how much a die would cost today
blush



Originally Posted by No Turbulence
Hi Kingy and all,

I was thinking 20-25 mm aluminium tube , with nylon spaces at the ends and maybe one in the middle, to stiffen the mast, no corrosion, little weight.

You'd need to attatch it in several spots along the length of the mast or the tube would simply remain straight as the mast section belly-danced around it during light loading, it would only help stiffen the mast section when the mast was bent enough to contact the tube and start bending the tube....
the other thing is the smaller tube sizes don't have much in the way of stiffness unless they are a heavy walled tube which sort of cancels out the weight issue a bit. What I was toying with was a 60mm tube with a 1mm wall thickness pressed into the mast section and then riveted on the sides of the mast say every 200mmm..... bloody stiff and reasonable weight wise, my only problem with the idea is the mast length compared to the off the shelf tubes, some tubes come in 6.5m lengths and others are only in 6m lengths.....
frown



Originally Posted by No Turbulence
.....if we look out to future carbon might be the only type of mast we can get so maybe a square top sail and carbon mast is what we should be looking at.

I think we need to consider the option of carbon as a future upgrade, as to when .. 2years ..5years ... 10 years from now, I don't know, but it would make sense to upgrade to an alloy mast now that is similar in size to whats currently available in the carbon world, one of the reasons I mentioned the 4.9tiapan superwing mast, I think we'll see more of these shapes in the future....
Its anyones guess as to what will be around in the future, for all we know right now the future mosquito may well be well beyond a square top sail and be using a wing like the current AC72's and with stays being made from carbon and trap wires from what dribbles from the butt of some rare Brazilian insect... or it will long be forgotten except by some dottering old fools at a retirement village on the moon
laugh



Originally Posted by No Turbulence

Having said that,if we are only looking at changing the sail to attract new sailors, lets not forget there are still boats being built, we have continue to attract new blood,
I believe the best way to keep that momentum going is keep showing the great points of owning a Mosquito. like easy to move around on the beach, great to sail, with carry a range of crew weigh, can be sailed by almost any age, easy to rig (only needs one person). good fleets, very competitive in mixed fleets, great group of people that are willing to help, strong association, great website and this forum. so keep going to Regattas and show the strong points the class and get people on the boat and take them for a sail.(just my 2 cents worth)

No Turbulence
1774


You hit the nail on the head Ross !!!

Having been absent from the sport for many years I was shocked that the mosquito was still around, I thought it would have long gone the way of the quick-cat and sol-cat which were on their way out when I sold my first mozzie.
To find out not only that they had survived but were being actively sailed in ever growing numbers was a complete and utter supprise, then to see the quality of the people sailing them both on the water and away from the boat was an even greater blessing..... add in the fact that there are multiple ways to sail a mozzie is a very rare thing for any class.

the ultimate recognition I've had since re-entering the sport was.......

you mosquito sailors are a rare breed, bloody tenacious lot to say the least


and I've heard that from a few people now

grin





Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270417
03/20/14 04:34 AM
03/20/14 04:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
Darryn Offline
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Interesting article on stiffening Paper Tiger masts on page 9 of their newsletter http://aptca.papertigercatamaran.org/media/newsletters/APT-16-online.pdf

Darryn

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270473
03/20/14 03:38 PM
03/20/14 03:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
No Turbulence Offline
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No Turbulence  Offline
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Thanks Darryn,

That is more or less what I was thinking, it would be interesting to see how much stiffer the mast is.

No Turbulence

1774


No Turbulence

1774
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270474
03/20/14 04:43 PM
03/20/14 04:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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I sail with the largest fleet of paper tigers in oz, when we have days of over 20 knots it is not unusual to see one or two broken masts when we get back to the beach. looks like the lower portion of the mast just isnt up to the task.

that solution is in response to a lot of fed up sailors sick of replacing masts frown

[Linked Image]

I have read this exact same debate from the mosquito/cobra fraternity many times before. seems to come up every couple of years.

there was a heap of arguing over the taipan sail plan upgrade in 2009, in the end i don't think it hurt the class and most people where very happy with the changes.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270495
03/21/14 03:45 PM
03/21/14 03:45 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
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Beckit 1824  Offline OP
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Port Hedland
Wow,

The Mast Stiffener on the paper tiger seems like a light option. If you used a carbon fibre section in there instead of aluminium it would be even lighter and stiffer whilst still being protected by the mast section. It the layers between it would also eliminate the corrosion. This was not something I even considered!

Would that still be within our current rules for masts too. Would also reduce the need for different sections.

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270496
03/21/14 06:21 PM
03/21/14 06:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
A small spreader, about where the pulley for the kite halyard is, would surely do the job. It wouldn't interfere with anything else and would stiffen the top section about where required....or have I missed something?


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #270498
03/22/14 06:30 AM
03/22/14 06:30 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 73
McLaren Vale, SA
Rebel without a Clew Offline
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McLaren Vale, SA
Evening all,
"One thing we haven't looked at yet is having our own dies made for a section we design purely for the class,"

M.C.A.S.A. looked at getting our "own" dies a couple of years ago when there were rumours about the current mast section dies being worn out,destroyed, etc. For the number of masts we require it was prohibitably expensive. Plus the current die still exists.
The aviation industry is the biggest user of carbon, sailing is a very small customer by comparison. One of our guys came back to mosquitos from an A Class, when we went to the Portarlington Nationals we had a spare A class carbon mast with us, price 2nd hand $4000,mossie blank current section $270. I can't see the price of carbon masts coming anywhere near aluminium in the near future.
Cheers,
Roy.
Rebel Without a Clew 1770
we were tempted to slip in the carbon A mast for measuring, as you do!

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Simon C] #270503
03/23/14 12:55 AM
03/23/14 12:55 AM

T
thricebitten
Unregistered
thricebitten
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T



Originally Posted by Simon C
A small spreader, about where the pulley for the kite halyard is, would surely do the job. It wouldn't interfere with anything else and would stiffen the top section about where required....or have I missed something?

Well it won't miss the jib is one of the problems wink .

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270506
03/23/14 04:57 AM
03/23/14 04:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
How can it affect the jib if it's above the hounds? Have a look at a B14 rig. It all seems to work on them.

Cheers


Simon
Taipan AUS341
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270507
03/23/14 05:29 AM
03/23/14 05:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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If it's above the hounds it wouldn't be doing much good, and remember B14s dont have rotating masts.

Bob already did this with his Square top rig in 2001. His fore-diamond went a long way down the mast - below the boom I think. No good with a jib. He said it was an absolute pain to get the tension right. Very touchy.


I'm struggling to understand the point of re-inventing the Taipan rig for the Mosquito. It already exists. If we put that on the Mosquito then doesn't the Mosquito become completely redundant? What's the point? What then is the Mosquito's point of differentiation apart from old-fashioned looking bows?

As it is the boat has a hull shape that works very well (despite the classic look) and a rig that works extremely well across a wide range of conditions (despite the classic look). Its a combination that certainly annoys the hell out of most other modern cats when they race against us.

So what are we trying to achieve by changing it?


[With reference to an earlier post, no class rules have been relaxed since prior to the 1990's.]


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270513
03/23/14 04:35 PM
03/23/14 04:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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now the circular argument is complete, I see you have not changed your tune in all these years Tim!

It could be argued that people want the taipan style without the price tag. cheap mossie hulls with an updated rig would work out cheaper than a taipan?

the smart move would be to adopt the taipan rig, plenty of good used taipan sails out there, and all the development work has been done for you.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270515
03/23/14 05:58 PM
03/23/14 05:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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Mozzie hulls are only cheap if you are looking at old second hand ones. There's no difference to the work and materials that go into a Mozzie hull than goes into a Taipan hull. With the Taipan hulls being built overseas THEY are the cheap option (or should be!).

My "tune", such as it is, hasn't changed because the square top question died when no-one supported Bob's rig and hasn't been raised since - until now. Don't think I'm against changing anything (there are class rules that have no impact on performance that I would change to modernise the boat but I know I would be wasting my breath suggesting them).

I'm just waiting for someone to come up with a proposal that will take the class forward (ie actually improve it). I've thought about it plenty and sure a square top will look real flash but no-one has figured out how to make it work as well as what we have now. Specifically a boat and rig that works well with any combination of cat, sloop and spinnaker.


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270517
03/23/14 06:12 PM
03/23/14 06:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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not saying that is a bad tune Tim! putting the big head sail may turn it into a pig of a boat off the breeze on windy days. in certain conditions it very well be slower.

in other news the taipan moulds are coming back to Oz, the price of a new taipan is about to rise significantly!


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #270518
03/23/14 06:18 PM
03/23/14 06:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
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Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Tim_Mozzie


So what are we trying to achieve by changing it?





apart from the obvious....
update an old look
slight performance gain
attract sailors from other classes
attract people to sailing

..... there really isn't an advantage !!!


The hard part is attracting people to the sport, the really hard part is to attract them to our class ....
For me I don't see we've addressed that well enough as yet to take the next step. We really could spend a lot of money to gain nothing in numbers but give a distinct advantage to certain boats to move ahead of the fleet with the upgrade..... sadly that's the A class line of thought, he with the fattest wallet wins, I for one cant afford to play that game and I doubt many of us here could or we'd already be on A's... the other side of it is when do we stop..... MK1, MK2, MK3......MK6, MK7, MK???


The whole idea from the start of this thread was to upgrade the look and in doing so hopefully get more mosquitos on the water .....


If we attack that idea at the basic core then we've missed quite a few obvious steps and we've jumped way ahead of where we should be looking.


We have the best part of several hundred mosquitos "out there", mostly they are older girls that only do club sailing with the occasional regatta with a couple of the local clubs, if..... and its a big IF, we could somehow attract them away from their home base and get them actively participating in the other events then we'd possibly see a numbers increase, a +65 class is something I belive is a very workable idea. Over the w/end I participated in a regatta at which there were 4 Mosquito's..... one was busy dueling with the A classes and Tiapans and giving them curry, Ross even took out the 2nd place overall (well done mate !!)
The other 3 mosquito's had some of the best racing I've ever encountered, it was that electric it caught the eye of several others that were enthralled at the tight racing we had, I'm not talking boat lengths and minutes I'm talking feet and seconds of very tight tactial racing, not only was it very gratifying to hear the respect we got from many others on how good the racing was but just the actual thought that we were noticed over the other boats that were way ahead

I would like to see a more active inclusion of the older boats into the competitive racing of today, the + 65 is good but we need to get it off the paper and get it active....
if we can get ~20 modern mozzies at a state tittle, if we had an active +65 group then how many more would have attended ????

from another thread.....
Quote
The 65kg + have always been part of the normal racing, they can get a place in the whole fleet and then there place in the 65kg+ category (although looking at the entries you may want to round up a few of the older boats to come and play)

the key words here are
round up a few of the older boats to come and play
and yes I'm still kicking myself for not attending the tittle with a boat instead of the camera, bloody hindsight is a mongrel thing....



My Summary:



we are not going to gain lots of new sailors, we might get 1 or 2 if we're really lucky, lets face it, how many of you would go to the arrow class because they have a square top
wink

we are not going to see new boats being built just because we have a new sail


we can strengthen the mast to cope with a square-top for a reasonable cost and without altering the current mast rules via a carbon tube insert.


we need the word MOSQUITO on the sail, this needs to be done for all new sails and be encouraged for existing sails too
I don't know how you 'enforce or encourage' that but I'm sure it can be done via the association ?????



We already have lots of Mosquitos out there and most of them are in the +65 range.





wink




Don't get me wrong here, I'd love a square-top and a sexy carbon mast on both of my mozzies, it would look just so right parked on the beach along side the Tiapans and A'classes......

hang on...... I sail a mosquito..... aren't we way different ????


wink





















Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Dazz] #270592
03/24/14 08:27 PM
03/24/14 08:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
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Got Wood Offline
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Posts: 76


in other news the taipan moulds are coming back to Oz, the price of a new taipan is about to rise significantly!

Another misinformed comment.

So, how much will a set of Taipan hulls set us back? Tim has it right, the difference between building a Mosquito hull and Taipan hull is almost zip.

Its the rig that seperates the two, the mast is the major cost difference. I wouldn't be looking to change from the Mossie has now. The difference is easily $2000+ (mast only)


Taipan AUS329 'Got Wood'
Mosquito 752 'Sticky Finger'
HARDWOOD RACING TEAM
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