Announcements
New Discussions
Worrell 1000 Ground Crew Finder
by John Williams. 02/18/20 06:50 PM
Bringing back the cat
by dave mosley. 02/03/20 08:12 AM
Worrell 1000
by John Williams. 01/29/20 04:38 PM
F85SR Concept Boat
by phill. 01/29/20 03:44 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 10 of 12 1 2 8 9 10 11 12
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270548
03/24/14 08:38 AM
03/24/14 08:38 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
No debris - Inmarsat did further analysis of their data and eliminated the northern corridor, concluding that the flight ended in the Indian Ocean.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270553
03/24/14 09:03 AM
03/24/14 09:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
Looks like they think they spotted some pallets in the ocean, 370 was carrying some pallets.


They didn't bother to mention how many other things carry pallets around on the oceans.

Last edited by bacho; 03/24/14 09:20 AM.
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: bacho] #270554
03/24/14 09:12 AM
03/24/14 09:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
maybe they can also find all those containers that the Svendborg lost last month...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/21/world/container-ship-loses-containers/

That would certainly help avoid "incidents" with some of our blue-water racer/cruisers...

That they are empty means they're probably floating about 3 feet under the surface of the sea. good times...


Jay

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270555
03/24/14 09:36 AM
03/24/14 09:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
I'm always amazed that the Volvo Round the World boats don't all run into something down there, seems it's full of garbage, and some of that garbage is very large, empty, metal containers!

From the above article: "The Through Transport Club, which insures 15 of the top 20 container lines, has put the loss at fewer than 2,000 containers a year. But other industry sources say the number may be as high as 10,000. That would still represent far less than 1% of the containers traversing the world's oceans. Maersk, one of the world's largest lines, says that its highest annual loss in the last decade was 59 containers."

Hit one of those when you're surfing down a wave at 25kts, and it's going to leave a mark!


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270556
03/24/14 10:00 AM
03/24/14 10:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
I'm pretty sure several of the VOR boats have been damaged in recent years from hitting submerged objects down there, and at least one of them was an unknown object. At the speeds they travel, and especially at night or in a storm with no visibility; they have almost no chance to avoid the stuff. There is most definitely a factor of luck in that race.

Mike

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Timbo] #270557
03/24/14 10:26 AM
03/24/14 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Timbo
Hit one of those when you're surfing down a wave at 25kts, and it's going to leave a mark!


On the boat and your pants...


Jay

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270560
03/24/14 11:00 AM
03/24/14 11:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
SO Timbo

Why would the plane be so far off course from where it was supposed to be? Even if it was trying to turn around it missed it by a good 30-60 degrees by my naked eye.

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270564
03/24/14 11:48 AM
03/24/14 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
My guess is, they had an electrical short/smoke/fire, which disabled both their radios and transponder. It seems they did initiate the initial action items as we are trained; turn towards your divert field, descend below 14,000.

It seems after they accomplished those two things, they were subsequently overcome by the smoke/fumes and the airplane continued on autopilot, holding heading and altitude, as it should, until it ran out of gas.

In the UPS 747 fire and crash in Dubai, their pilots got their oxygen masks on, and their smoke goggles on, but the smoke was so think they could not even see their instruments, from less than 6" away! They made a low pass over the Dubai airport, but were going 250kts when they did. So they tried to go around and do another approach, which ended with them crashing into the desert just outside Dubai.

If you can't see your instruments because the smoke is so thick, and you can't ventilate the smoke, you can't fly the airplane. You are only going to live until your 02 runs out anyway, which I'm sure was far less than the 7 hours MH370 flew on autopilot before it ran out of gas.

Here's another issue that might arise if/when they ever find the **** Voice Recorder (CVR). In the old days, the CVR was a cassette tape which ran in a 30 minute continuous loop. When the 777 came along, Boeing went to a digital recorder, but from what I've been told by my simulator instructors, it only has a two hour loop. IF...they were fighting a smoke/fire situation, lost the fight, and then the airplane flew on for more than two hours, the CVR is going to be blank, as in no voices at all. We may never hear what they were talking about when the problems started.

The Flight Data Recorder will have a lot of data such as airspeed, altitude, heading, systems which were inop, (Hydraulics, fuel on board, etc.) I don't know if it will tell them definitively if there was smoke, or where the smoke was coming from, unless the FDR also records which electrical busses were lost due to the short, etc. If there were some other reason for the smoke, like somebody was intentionally starting a fire, or a small bomb/hijack scenario, it won't tell us that.


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Timbo] #270565
03/24/14 11:56 AM
03/24/14 11:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
what caused that much smoke? The front tire fire that someone mentioned earlier?

Sucks you can't open a window, and get a nice fresh (250 knot) breeze to clear the ****... and fan the fire...

Hey, can anyone open up the emergency exit doors when the plane is still flying?

Let's say the smoke in the cabin was that bad... could a steward open the back door? Not that anyone has a parachute or anything, but perhaps out of desperation?


Jay

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270566
03/24/14 12:02 PM
03/24/14 12:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
In the UPS 747 crash, it was Lithium Batteries. The Malaysian 777 was also carrying Lithium Batteries in the cargo hold. I don't know how many, but it only takes a few to start a fire. HOWEVER... the 777 has a pretty good smoke/fire suppression system for the cargo hold, and that should not affect their radios.

The UPS 747 was talking on the radio right up until they hit the dirt. That's why I think the Malaysian problem started with their radios, or something in the E/E bay, which has no fire suppression.

Once you have depressurized the airplane (at any altitude) you can indeed open the **** windows, but not the cabin doors, as they swing forward, against the wind, like your car doors, but you'd never be able to force it open with a 200+ knot windflow.


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270567
03/24/14 12:09 PM
03/24/14 12:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
But in case of a fire wouldn't there have been any time to communicate with an airport?
Like a mayday? Is there even a protocol/training for situations like these?
I still cannot believe there isn't an independent EPIRB-ish system onboard in case of an emergency like this one.

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270569
03/24/14 12:19 PM
03/24/14 12:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Depending on where they were, they might have been beyond VHF radio coverage. We switch over to HF and Sat Com once we leave VHF (land based) coverage areas, when we go over the oceans and northern Canada/North Pole area to make our position reports. BUT...from what I've been hearing, Malaysian Airlines didn't pay for Sat Com, so their guys may have been using HF, and that is a huge pain in the buttocks, especially when you are on fire, and breathing in your 02 mask. The HF radios are complete crap, in terms of reception. Lots of static.

The LAST thing we do is make a radio call to report a problem, when it's a MAJOR problem, like a fire/depressurization, we are too busy to talk to ATC for the first 3-5 minutes. If we are already out of VHF range, most guys wouldn't even try to make an HF report. HF radios suck, and the coverage is terrible. You are not in radar contact by then, and the guy on the other end of the HF is probably fast asleep at 2am.

If their problem was an electrical one, it could have started with the electrical buss that powers the radios, rendering them inop anyway.


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270570
03/24/14 12:50 PM
03/24/14 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Here's more on the UPS 747 fire/crash in Dubai:

http://www.emirates247.com/news/emi...to-lithium-batteries-2013-07-25-1.515438

From the report: “A cargo on the main cargo deck had ignited at some point after departure. Less than three minutes after the first warning to the crew, the fire resulted in severe damage to flight control systems and caused the upper deck and **** to fill with continuous smoke.

“The crew then advised Bahrain East Area Control [BAE-C] that the **** was ‘full of smoke’ and that they ‘could not see the radios’, at around the same time the crew experienced pitch control anomalies during the turn back and descent to ten thousand feet.

“The smoke did not abate during the emergency impairing the ability of the crew to safely operate the aircraft for the duration of the flight back to DXB.

“On the descent to ten thousand feet, the captain’s supplemental oxygen supply abruptly ceased to function without any audible or visual warning to the crew five minutes and thirty seconds after the first audible warning. This resulted in the Captain leaving his position. The Captain left his seat and did not return to his position for the duration of the flight due to incapacitation from toxic gases.

“The First Officer[F.O], now the Pilot Flying [PF] could not view outside of the ****, the primary flight displays, or the audio control panel to retune to the UAE frequencies.

“Due to the consistent and contiguous smoke in the **** all communication between the destination [DXB] and the crew was routed through relay aircraft in VHF range of the emergency aircraft and BAE-C.


This event happened over land, not far from where they departed and they were talking to Bahrain ATC on VHF radios.

The Malaysian 777 was way out over water, out of VHF radio and radar range. I think that's why there was no reported radio chatter, but as I said earlier, the problem causing the smoke could also have rendered their radios inop.


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270575
03/24/14 03:18 PM
03/24/14 03:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 71
South Florida
joeyg Offline
journeyman
joeyg  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 71
South Florida
Does the 777 have SELCAL?


After all, its not easy, banging your head against some mad buggers wall.
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270576
03/24/14 03:32 PM
03/24/14 03:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Timbo, I heard the same about the voice recorders, last two hours only.

They need to give you guys those fancy HUD masks, so you can land the plane with a **** full of smoke, assuming you're within your O2 limit from an airport. I'm sure the military can trickle those down by now.

Mike

Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: joeyg] #270577
03/24/14 03:56 PM
03/24/14 03:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by joeyg
Does the 777 have SELCAL?


Yes, both on HF and Sat Com. but mostly we use CPDLC and send/receive messages from ATC when we are out of VHF range, but not every country supports that system.

Mo'Money...


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: brucat] #270578
03/24/14 04:00 PM
03/24/14 04:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by brucat
Timbo, I heard the same about the voice recorders, last two hours only.

They need to give you guys those fancy HUD masks, so you can land the plane with a **** full of smoke, assuming you're within your O2 limit from an airport. I'm sure the military can trickle those down by now.

Mike


There's a lot of stuff they could buy, but like I said at the beginning, nobody wants to spend the money. (airlines nor governments) It's a calculated loss type situation. Pilots, airplanes and passengers are expendable, and the bean counters say, "Well...all that safety stuff is very expensive to buy, then we have to maintain it, and inspect it, and replace it. So what are the chances we will ever actually need it??"

It's a risk they are willing to take...when they are at home in bed.


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Timbo] #270581
03/24/14 04:14 PM
03/24/14 04:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 71
South Florida
joeyg Offline
journeyman
joeyg  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 71
South Florida
And I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that CPDLC is not very available in that part of the world


After all, its not easy, banging your head against some mad buggers wall.
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: Jake] #270583
03/24/14 04:45 PM
03/24/14 04:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
I've flown the route from Tokyo to Singapore many times, they do have it in some areas along the way, Hong Kong area has it, I don't think they have it in Malaysia, but without looking at the charts I can't recall exactly who does and who doesn't right now. I'll take a look after dinner.

Here's the regular route, Delta is now running a 767 on it, which is why it's been about 6 months since I last flew it.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL621/history/20140324/0900Z/RJAA/WSSS

Here's a slightly different route, which is the one I recall flying (A590), and this flight was a 777. Seems Delta is alternating 767's and 777's on the route, depends on which day of the week you fly it. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL621/history/20140322/0900Z/RJAA/WSSS

This route is out over the water more than the previous route. That could be because of weather along the route. There are typically a lot of thunderstorms down that way, more so the closer you get to the equator.


Blade F16
#777
Re: How in the world can we lose an entire jumbo jet today? [Re: brucat] #270615
03/25/14 07:13 AM
03/25/14 07:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by brucat
I'm pretty sure several of the VOR boats have been damaged in recent years from hitting submerged objects down there, and at least one of them was an unknown object. At the speeds they travel, and especially at night or in a storm with no visibility; they have almost no chance to avoid the stuff. There is most definitely a factor of luck in that race.

Mike


Not sure a VOR boat has had an issue in that particular part of the ocean. That is getting down there. The only vessels continuously operating in that region are of the military kind we aren't supposed to know about. Otherwise it's round the world racing boats, which is why CNN is playing that footage, it's probably the only HD footage from that area! So, not too many lost container unless the were carried there by ocean currents!

Puma hit a tree trunk, but in the Malacca straights: www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/otherspor...ugh-precarious-Malacca-Strait-route.html

Camper avoided a whale on the way into Lisbon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ1WaiCAGXk

I do recall BP5 having an issue pretty far south, but a lot closer to land than where this flight went down. Some of the other round the world tris and cats have hit UFO's at speed deep in the southern ocean. As I recall they had a radar detection system for growlers installed on Orange II in the bows of each hull to mitigate this problem, because you're right Mike you can't see at those speeds, pitch black night, while getting drenched with ice cold water...

Anyway, I suspect they might have found debris from the accident in the satellite and surveillance footage that we haven't seen (and never will). Airplane parts are light and some tend to float. I also trust the Inmarsat guys. They are a sharp bunch of dudes and my hates off to them for crunching the numbers to get some actionable data out to the search team.





Scorpion F18
Page 10 of 12 1 2 8 9 10 11 12

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Damon Linkous), 50 guests, and 334 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
wgilmour, Jacob7876, Wozza, kvc0615, CaptainAhab
8007 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
phill 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,375
Posts266,972
Members8,007
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1