Announcements
New Discussions
Downhaul under spinnaker
by CapriSun. 11/12/20 09:41 AM
Tornado
by Team_Cat_Fever. 11/02/20 09:45 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270594
03/24/14 08:56 PM
03/24/14 08:56 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
addict
Matt_Stone  Offline
addict

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
I recon I can get the tiapan mast cheap, depends on where your looking.
Simon. only one pair of diamonds and one set of spreaders, in the ruls, I was planning to put jumpers above the hounds, WRONG try again,

Idea hounds as high as they can go and put the trap wire attachment 1 meter above the hound so your weight controls the top? bob Wilson has this!







-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Got Wood] #270597
03/24/14 09:45 PM
03/24/14 09:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
addict
Dazz  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Originally Posted by Got Wood


in other news the taipan moulds are coming back to Oz, the price of a new taipan is about to rise significantly!

Another misinformed comment.

So, how much will a set of Taipan hulls set us back? Tim has it right, the difference between building a Mosquito hull and Taipan hull is almost zip.

Its the rig that seperates the two, the mast is the major cost difference. I wouldn't be looking to change from the Mossie has now. The difference is easily $2000+ (mast only)


I was at the AHPC factory in January getting the grand tour, it was what Brett told us at the time, something may have changed in the last month or so.

the reasoning was the builder only wants to build them in batches, but so few taipans are being sold they cant get enough orders to make it viable. its not like the c2 or viper that have good demand for them.

if the moulds are here then a single boat can be built, the downside is the labour cost is a lot higher.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270598
03/24/14 11:04 PM
03/24/14 11:04 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



This isn't really the place to discuss it. If people want info contact me direct and I'll happily answer questions without encroaching on the Mossie Forum. We're still talking to builders, however, I can confidently say the cost of a set of Taipan Hulls will be less than $10K. Our rules require you to buy your mast and front beam from Goodall Design but everything else can be shopped around for like a new Mossie. So if you're willing shop around and assemble your own boat cost should be about $1-2K more than a new mozzie built the same way.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270599
03/24/14 11:19 PM
03/24/14 11:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
addict
Dazz  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Sorry if I have prematurely let the cat out of the bag scarecrow.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270600
03/24/14 11:43 PM
03/24/14 11:43 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



It is a very open secret. We're keeping our members updated on the Taipan Forum, which anyone can visit.

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: ] #270607
03/25/14 05:31 AM
03/25/14 05:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
..... on the Taipan Forum, which anyone can visit.

for anyone looking for a link to the Tiapan Forum it's here



Interestingly enough it seems the Taipan sailors have a very similar situation to our own issue, how to draw new blood into the class.....

I spent some time reading through various threads on your forum and this particular one caught my eye and certainly needs to be brought to the attention of us mozzie sailors.....


CLICK ME => What could we do to improve the class ?



A very interesting read with 3 pages of some excellent ideas on how to lift the visibility of the class, we could ALL learn from some of the suggestions that have been listed.


One thing that did catch my eye was this little gem....
Quote
Realistically I see A-Class, Mossies & Paper Tigers as our ‘competition’

As I went through other threads I noticed several names I know to be ex-mozzie sailors from back when that have left the class for the Tiapan.....
It would appear that both classes have issues facing their future and the ability to draw on new blood seems to be a major issue for both boat types as it most likely is for others I've not listed (the Arrow springs to mind instantly and I'm sure there's many more), we probably need to be sharing the brain-storming ideas and develop a Strategy that assists both classes not only to survive in the long term but to gain a footing back in the sales of new boats and increase the numbers that compete

As you yourself said Chris,
"If sail numbers are anything to go by AHPC Goodall Design have sold more Vipers in 5 years than they did Taipans in almost 30,"
That's a serious blow not only to the Tiapan class and to us as well although probably not as directly..
shocked




Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #270608
03/25/14 06:04 AM
03/25/14 06:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
From the Port Vincent thread....... and yes I asked Hack if I could copy it across wink

Originally Posted by Hack
....I know it's off-thread, but for what it's worth, the PVSC guys reckon that the 'square-top' argument should not take precedence over the 'Mosquito' lettering on the sail. We reiterate that the beauty of this class is the low cost, versatility, ease of rigging/sailing etc. The immediate and relatively low cost impact of the lettering would attract more new sailors than a new sail/mast etc which will inevitably lead to increased set up and replacement costs...

I'll also reiterate that the further great strength of this class is the people within it, who are friendly, enthusiastic and willing to assist newcomers. I think that this is the biggest selling point that needs to be exploited. Recent comments about the 65+ division also has merit, so that older boats will be dragged out of the sheds...

All the best.




The PM I sent to Hack regarding his post went something like ......

On a rough calculation.....

we have had ~1800 odd mozzies in Australia

lets deduct 33% as written off long ago

lets take another 33% as un-sailable without major expense or rebuild..

that leaves ~600 boats that are scattered throughout Australia that in theory can be sailed with relatively minimal work or expense,

If we are looking to boost numbers up then surely that 600 need to be actively encouraged to get back n going again...

21 boats at a state tittle out of a possible 600, pardon my maths but that's like ~3%

if we encourage the +65 class of boat into the equation then we get the numbers without the sacrifice and costs.






As for a square-top..... if we continue with the logic you would have say the most likely people to go with the square-top are those that 'have to' for that performance gain (all be it un-proven at the moment), 'those' would be the ones competing at the titles, again this comes down to a minimal 3% of the numbers......


so are we really ready to make a major change to the rules and have an additional cost for ~3% of the class (remembering that the ~3% is only drawn from the maybe possible 600 surviving boats..... do your own maths on ~20 odd boats at a state title out of an original +1800 built which equals SFA in the percentage stakes !!!)




confused






As I've suggested earlier there are other ways to update the boat and get mozzie sailors back on the water in numbers with some ease compared to adding the dramas of a new sail into the equasion.


I still fully belive these need to be addressed before we take on a new sail shape and I'm sure we can all come up with various ideas on how to go about it.

smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270712
03/26/14 03:03 PM
03/26/14 03:03 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
member
Beckit 1824  Offline OP
member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Ladies and Gents,

I have to dispute the thinking above. The numbers aren't really based on any facts and I think we have to be careful making a decision on them.

I also think we are getting off the topic a bit as to whether we want to look at square top sails.

In my experience, trying to invigorate a sport by getting existing competitors back into it, or poaching from other classes is a self defeating effort. As soon as you get a boat back on the water, another vessel is taken off, and for anyone you manage to get from another class you lose one. It also has the side effect that the boats get stuck in one generation and will eventually stop sailing due to age. If you look at it demographically, this is can be currently illustrated by the average age of our members and our the low percentage of sailors under 30.

I think the only way to get people in is in the front door when they are young so that the class can cope with natural attrition. In my mind the mozzie is perfect for this.

More so than the Hobie 16- the current youth development class, the mozzie is light for them to handle both on and off the shore, affordable, fast and exciting (particularly with the spinnaker) and a natural progression between mono slugs and F18s if they are so inclined. Think of the champions that have come up through Paper Tigers and Mozzies already.

My original reason for posing the topic was to see whether we should consider 'updating the look' of the mozzie as other classes have. I think from the previous posts that the mast and sail specifics are manageable and workable, and compared to the spinnaker this is a much smaller adjustment to the class.

As can be shown by the Arrows, pin top sails are still competitive and widely used in varying conditions, however Square tops are more in line with the modern classes and in my opinion make the mozzie look fantastic. Hopefully this look will encourage young sailors to get into the class and provide an affordable alternative to other ages wanting to get into cat sailing.

From sailors I have spoken to, there is a lot of interest within the class to explore this option, with some looking at rigging one and watching other classes progression.

So my question still remains, are Square top sails an option we want to explore over a period of time?

Luke
Beckit 1824


Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270737
03/27/14 04:45 AM
03/27/14 04:45 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by beckit 1824
..... I have to dispute the thinking above. The numbers aren't really based on any facts and I think we have to be careful making a decision on them.......

I based my loose maths on a simple thing........ observations of the sail numbers I see club racing on a regular basis

I haven't seen a boat number below 1000 since the Easter Regatta @ Lake Bolac last year, on that occasion it was sail number 99 shocked
(there's a photo in another thread of it)
If we used number 99 as the starting number then the percentages would have been on 20 boats over 1700..... shocked

So I based my maths on numbers from around the 1000 mark to the current numbers of ~1800, making it ~700 boats, I rounded it down to ~600 as that worked better with the 1800 number and because I couldn't be stuffed dragging out the calculator it was close enough at a 1/3rd of the total build numbers.....

Even if we agreed that there were only 100 active boats and I take the proven number of ~20 at a tittle we are still only dealing with 20% that would under the pressure of competition have to at a sooner than later stage make the move to the square-top.

so we are making a major decision of a sail change and possible mast change for ~20% of a fleet number if we run with the 100 active sailors number.....
The reality is we don't know just how many there are, there is 4 older mozzies at my club that sail regularily, I pass 2 mozzies on a regular basis that are parked under the trees but every now and then one of them has moved, I see one more at a yacht club that hasn't moved for a couple of years but is still in good sailable nick..... all these mozzies are below the sail number of Twice Shy which is 1182

the only "modern" mozzie I see is 1740..... its in my shed undergoing a rebuild but will be out next season. grin


Until we actually research the active numbers we don't know what the exact percentage is.



For me its a change that seems for the minority at the moment and not really doing any favors for the majority........









Originally Posted by beckit 1824
.....So my question still remains, are Square top sails an option we want to explore over a period of time?


With the discussion so far we have found some issues that we have managed to largely overcome on "paper", namely the mast stiffness issue, we may adopt a new mast specifically for the square-top or alternatively strengthen the existing mast size to cope..... both means have benefits over the current mast & both add an additional cost to existing boats.....

The sail itself is still unproven in my mind and until someone actualy parts with the hard earned dollars it will most likely remain untested and subsequently unproven......


however........ to answer your question directly........


yes its an option we definitely need to explore for the long term lifespan of the class smile


I still have my hand up for the testing process and I fully belive several sailors from differing orientations of the sport should be part of the overall testing of a square-top.....
It should be done at club level by the occasional weekender sailor as well as the classes top guns and the boats should equally include sloops / cats / spins on both the MK1 & MK2 along with the older girls (+65's) in both formats for a true and fair comparison for ALL mozzie sailors, not just the cashed up ones or class elite.

Once we have an idea of the numbers and the data to correspond, then and only then can we make an informed decision about the classes future.
smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #270782
03/27/14 02:32 PM
03/27/14 02:32 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
addict
Matt_Stone  Offline
addict

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
firstly, if u want this to work with the the older boats, push them to a regatta with us. I have 5 others at my club and for years ive been trying to get them to come but they only want to sail at the club, there are 55 measured boats on the register so why we only get 35 at nationals? there are boats stored everywhere, we need them out and sailing. why do they hold them.... who knows its a good class not to get rid of the boat.

the clothing has been talked about with an online shop. with photos and all.

The 65+ was waved in the last 2 years as the amount of heavy boats has dropped big time in the last 5 years.

All Mossies should come to SAUNA SAIL and out doo the other classes. big winter event. we have had 24 one year.

Pirate....should sail your boat to get numbers up. Thanks for the photos but why didnt u sail the states? Sail = more fun more mossies on water.

I have been pushing mossies or a few years now habd have got a few into mossies. and still we p**s the other cats off cos we still beat them on a classic boat.

any inquires about the web site speak to Tim S, hes the web site guy.

Matt

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #272438
05/19/14 07:21 AM
05/19/14 07:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
So where are we on subject ?????

there's been a poll that didn't go well for the square-top sail,

but that shouldn't mean we just drop the ball and leave it for a few more years or until someone else takes it up again.
wink


I still think we should be looking into it for a future useage at some stage .....


So here's an "out there" idea.


How would we go if we could convince the association to 'pay' for a single square-top sail, mosquito logo and the word mosquito only on the sail and NO number.....
The sail could then be made available to association members for say a "bond" of $300 deposit and you get back $200 once the sail is returned. The association takes the $100 as a subsudity on the initial cost of the sail thus making it affordable for the association and its members.

A set time period of say ~4 weeks per "hire" would allow plenty of member testing and feed back to the association or here on the forum....
As a member of a club that runs 4 mosquito's on a regular basis then that $100 'cost could be split 4 ways making it even more affordable and having a greater feedback....

In this way we could get 'testing' done over a year or 2 and have results and feedback from all sorts of boats from older heavier girls to the superlight carbon rockets & on all sorts of water bodies be they open ocean , bay or lake sailing, & most importantly, with all the different sailors be they old farts like me or the newbie and everyone in-between.

just thinking out-loud here.... or should I just drop it like it has been
?


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #272485
05/19/14 04:07 PM
05/19/14 04:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
Darryn Offline
addict
Darryn  Offline
addict
D

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Would you fund it out of your pocket? $2k for the sail, freight, repairs, time to administer it, liability insurance and provision for theft/replacement due to wear. All that has to be covered by $25/week.
To make it viable you would have to charge $100/day the sail isn't at home base, minimum 2 day hire, customer pays the freight.

If you believe the idea is such a winner back it yourself, the class has a track record of adopting ideas which just make sense. The spinnaker was funded and developed this way by Tim Sheppard, others where involved I believe but he made it happen.
Good Luck,
Darryn

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Darryn] #272490
05/19/14 06:35 PM
05/19/14 06:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
G
Got Wood Offline
journeyman
Got Wood  Offline
journeyman
G

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
I think the above is right, as well...the second line in regard to the poll really has answered the question.


I been watching out of interest, the lack of support is fairly evident.

I really dont understand the need or desire to change the rig, the class is healthy and the rig looks fine. The signage on some of the sails looks great.

In saying that, I have a a class section Taipan mast fully rigged for sale...haha.


Taipan AUS329 'Got Wood'
Mosquito 752 'Sticky Finger'
HARDWOOD RACING TEAM
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Pirate] #272497
05/20/14 04:30 AM
05/20/14 04:30 AM

T
thricebitten
Unregistered
thricebitten
Unregistered
T



Kingy,

as discussed previously, first the mast needs to be sorted (consensus is current mast will not support a modern looking square top efficently). No point in making a sail when you don't know what mast it will be used on.

But my personal opinion is that the current rig is so efficent across a broad spectrum of conditions that it would take years to get a square top to work as well, never mind better across the range of conditions.

If anybody is committed enough to make it happen, all power to them.

To give an idea of commitment shown in the past. The development of the spinnaker for the Mossie, started with trial of furling gennakers (didn't work) and then spinnakers. At least 3 spinnakers where trialed before settling on what we have today and it took place over about 3 years. Tim did most of this out of his own pocket. I'm sorry but I think this is the sort of commitment that would be neccessary to see another change in what is a succesful competitive class, for me personaly I think "if it aint broke don't fix it".

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #272634
05/22/14 06:34 AM
05/22/14 06:34 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Beckit 1824 Offline OP
member
Beckit 1824  Offline OP
member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 108
Port Hedland
Strangely enough a few people I have spoken to have been getting alternate sections and are looking at sail cuts. I will be interested to see what they come up with and how effective are some of the results.

Luke

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #272752
05/24/14 09:07 PM
05/24/14 09:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 11
Warners bay , nsw , Australia
M
mousetrap Offline
stranger
mousetrap  Offline
stranger
M

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 11
Warners bay , nsw , Australia
Luke, you have PM.


Cheers,Dave.
CHA-CHING 922
BITE ME 1749
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: mousetrap] #275753
10/03/14 04:57 PM
10/03/14 04:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #275754
10/03/14 05:36 PM
10/03/14 05:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
No Turbulence Offline
member
No Turbulence  Offline
member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 101
I was talking with Steven Brewin the other day and he mentioned he had built a square top sail for a Cobra, he was a bit concened about how the mast would cope.


No Turbulence

1774
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #275762
10/04/14 07:08 AM
10/04/14 07:08 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
They are sleaving the inside of the mast from the hounds

Last edited by JeffS; 10/04/14 07:08 AM.

Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Square Top Sails [Re: Beckit 1824] #275770
10/05/14 06:48 PM
10/05/14 06:48 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
addict
Matt_Stone  Offline
addict

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
To heavy if we sleave them

Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 26 guests, and 240 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
jamieoklahoma, CameronB, stampdk, lwalling, PavelRu
8076 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Timbo 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,383
Posts267,009
Members8,076
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1