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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272053
05/01/14 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
I think if you take this case to the point where someone is mounting a 5' bar to the hull pointing straight aft and trapezing off that, then it becomes part of the hull. A foot strap isn't giving you any more righting leverage than you had before and it's not changing the aerodynamics or hydrodynamics of the hull in a positive way. Obviously, when defining the outer dimensions of the hull the intent is to limit the waterline and available righting leverage (particularly when they start getting into the athwart ship dimensions of the rudder appendage). The footstrap doesn't increase any of these performance characteristics and is, largely, a safety device.

Now, you could argue that having a little extra ability to prevent peter-panning down the side of the hull can improve performance but foot straps are not prohibitively expensive and are easily available to all. People will be trapezing off the corner of their boat whether or not a foot strap is there - should they not increase their safety just a little? It just doesn't make sense to consider that as part of the hull in either case.


You DO increase your righting and anti-pitching moment by moving your footstrap to one tab on the transom. If not why did you ( anyone) do it? You could have just as easily mounted it with both tabs on the shear and lost that extra 2 or 3". Just like Mike's Bungee /tramp example. Rules are rules rather you break them a little or alot.


I would argue that you can still put your foot in the same spot and trapeze in the same position without the foot strap. I know I can on the F18 and have, on occasion, stood on top of the footstrap (squishing it) when I was caught unprepared and it was adjusted too small for my booted foot to get into it (the old DaKine style - usually the first regatta in the fall when I switch from barefoot to wearing shoes).


Jake Kohl
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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272055
05/01/14 09:04 AM
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Is hell freezing over? ;-), I read most of this thread, and I'm agreeing with Jakes comments- again.

And I have seen a foot strap on a rudder casting- sorry, don't have a pic handy.

And as has been discussed, the strap should be adjusted so you can get your foot out while under tension.

MY Left knee pain still reminds me of a similar situation where I nearly ripped my left leg off at the knee during a capsize- when it was caught under the hiking stap on the tramp. But that was another thread- a long time ago.

Bottom line- Foot straps- good things- provided you adjusted it so you CAN get your foot out when it gets wild.

Ian Billings had a similar broken foot sailing with John Tomko years ago I believe.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jake] #272056
05/01/14 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
OK...so, hypothetical time. What if the footstraps were mounted to the rudder heads? The rudder is excluded from the hull measurement.

I know, not terribly practical but it COULD be done. I think this illustrates the silliness of including a footstrap as part of "the hull".


Again, no one has yet pointed to the document that says the A-Cat ruling in question is official or correct in any way.

As to this hypothetical question, this would need to be limited by the class rule. In the Hobie Class rules, there is a general statement that foot straps may be added. Then, within each of the individual design sections (14, 16, 17, etc.) there is specific language stating where they can be added (hull vs. crossbar vs. wing). Nowhere does it say that you can't add them to the rudder head, but since the rules give specific instruction on where they can be added, putting them anywhere else would most likely be considered getting into the loophole area (not allowed).

The challenge with the A-Class rules is that they need to be flexible enough to allow for innovation, yet restrictive enough so that the boats resemble each other enough to be considered a class. Interestingly, the A-Class rules don't have the loophole disclaimer that Lasers and Hobies use (if it's not listed, it's not legal), making me even more concerned about the validity of this ruling interpretation.

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272057
05/01/14 09:15 AM
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Todd Sails: I did the knee vs. hiking strap trick while capsizing a Wave at Madcatter a few years ago. NOT fun... Pedro Colon (the Doctor, PUR) said he had to turn away because it turned his stomach to see me hanging there with my leg at that angle...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 05/01/14 09:16 AM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272060
05/01/14 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat


Again, no one has yet pointed to the document that says the A-Cat ruling in question is official or correct in any way.

....


I think it should be called an interpretation rather than a ruling. It doesn't sound like it's been challenged in either case.

In the case of the F18, I would simply point out the inconsistency in that the rudder pintles/gudgeons are defined in exactly the same way as the foot strap but the rudder hardware (pintles/gudgons) that is bolted to the back of "the hull" has always been excluded from the overall hull length measurement. Why is the foot strap any different if it is defined in the exact same manner?

Then I would get into the weeds with the semantics if that didn't do it.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272061
05/01/14 09:36 AM
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OK, but you'd obviously want those to be consistent between events and juries, so it behooves the class to publish the official interpretations (A-class topic).

In the F18 class rules, there is a loophole clause. Foot straps are listed as optional hull fittings, with no discussion on where they could be placed.

So, for the F18s, I would say they must be attached to the hull (including the transom which is part of the hull), would not be included in a length measurement (as they are fittings and the ERS says not to measure fittings as part of hull length), but cannot be added to the rudder (since they are listed as hull fittings and loopholes are not allowed).

I'd even venture to say that the F18 rules are prescriptive and clear enough to not need an official, documented, interpretation.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 05/01/14 09:41 AM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272063
05/01/14 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
OK, but you'd obviously want those to be consistent between events and juries, so it behooves the class to publish the official interpretations (A-class topic).

In the F18 class rules, there is a loophole clause. Foot straps are listed as optional hull fittings, with no discussion on where they could be placed.

So, for the F18s, I would say they must be attached to the hull (including the transom which is part of the hull), would not be included in a length measurement (as they are fittings and the ERS says not to measure fittings as part of hull length), but cannot be added to the rudder (since they are listed as hull fittings and loopholes are not allowed).

I'd even venture to say that the F18 rules are prescriptive and clear enough to not need an official, documented, interpretation.

Mike


Oh, your right. I hadn't thought of "interpretation" in that context. Is the opinion of one measurer either a ruling or interpretation? What's the correct term?

Good point on the F18 foot strap rudder head connection. I had meant that in the case of the A-cat where the foot strap isn't refered to at all but the rudder is excluded from the hull measurement (as long as it's width is within a specific width).


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272068
05/01/14 10:52 AM
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I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by Tony_F18; 05/01/14 10:54 AM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Tony_F18] #272070
05/01/14 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.
[Linked Image]


That is interesting...it would do mostly the same thing and be safer. It would also not require part of the foot strap to be bolted to the back of the hull.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272074
05/01/14 12:19 PM
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Tony, thanks for posting that, those look like a great option!

Ruling vs. interpretation is an interesting question.

The RRS provides a process which could be circular, depending upon who the measurer is.

RRS 43.1(c) and 78.3 require the measurer to decide if an equipment rule is broken, and if so, to report that to the RC.

RRS 60.2 requires the RC to file a protest if it receives such a report.

RRS 64.3(b) says that if the PC is in doubt about the meaning of a class rule, it shall ask the relevant authority for an interpretation, which the PC is then bound to follow when deciding the protest.

RRS 65.3 requires that if any PC penalizes a boat over a measurement rule [with or without 64.3(b) coming into play], it must report that back to the measurement authority.

Of course, RRS 62.1(a) allows a sailor to file for redress based on the actions of RC, PC and/or measurer; and unless otherwise prohibited, can also appeal any ruling.

So, for all practical purposes, unless the measurer is the class authority, his word ("ruling" interpretation or decision) is most definitely not final.

If he is the class authority, there might be some relief if the PC decides that the measurer is clearly mistaken, but I don't know if there's precedence for this.

EDIT: ERS is not a rule unless invoked by one of the docs listed under the definition of "rule" (NOR, SIs, class rules, Rx, ISAF Regs). The F18 class rules refer to ERS, but neither the A-Class nor the Hobie class rules do so. I'm not sure why not, as this would seem to be a great help for standardization for sailors, measurers and PCs...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 05/01/14 12:26 PM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Tony_F18] #272079
05/01/14 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.
[Linked Image]


Nice picture and alternative Tony,

But from a biomechanics standpoint- I totally disagree with you.
If your fore foot looses contact with the hull, in MANY situations, including a brisk leg flexion at the knee, unless really wedged in there- the strapped foot WILL come out.
You shouldn't need the torque/force from your other foot to pull the strapped foot out.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Todd_Sails] #272084
05/01/14 02:34 PM
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Besides that, the skyhooks mentioned by Tony are just to be used by kitesurfers on a directional strapless board.
The newest hype in kitesurfing is kiting strapless!

But doing so at sea you need to pass the breaking waves and that's where you want to lift the board with your feet. So you squeeze both knees together and take the board with you by the skyhooks as you steer the kite up.

This all has nothing or less to do with catsailing.

Don't kill the Messenger please


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: northsea junkie] #272085
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Yes, but nobody says the hook needs to be as short as that. The upper hook could be 12" long and function like a standard footstrap - just open on the end.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272086
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Ofcourse, but the hooks are made of a very densed foam (which will not damage your foot). I wonder if an open bridge of 12" from this foam is stiff enough.

Also I ask myself if open ended will work for your balance.

I think you have to try it. Hope for you that it works.




Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/01/14 03:15 PM.

ronald
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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: northsea junkie] #272087
05/01/14 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Ofcourse, but the hooks are made of a very densed foam (which will not damage your foot). I wonder if an open bridge of 12" from this foam is stiff enough.

Also I ask myself if open ended will work for your balance.

I think you have to try it. Hope for you that it works.





It would have to have a rigid spine of something other than foam (I'm a mechanical engineer).


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272090
05/01/14 03:52 PM
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Use the sky hooks but turn them around. A wide stance would brace you in. The reversed rear sky hook would keep your rear foot from being washed out from under you. The front skyhook would allow you push back against the rear. relax and you come right out of them.

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272091
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wouldn't the Sky Hooks interfere with the rudder operation?


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272092
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It may need development, for all of the reasons given above, but I think the concept is brilliant.

Obviously, the details are absolutely critical, or this goes the way of the dodo or Bethwaite ball and socket trapeze system (loved by few, ignored by most)...

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jake] #272093
05/01/14 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.
[Linked Image]


That is interesting...it would do mostly the same thing and be safer. It would also not require part of the foot strap to be bolted to the back of the hull.


How will this keep your foot from getting washed off the hull side. That's all a footstrap is supposed to do anyway.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272094
05/01/14 05:29 PM
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Like Orphan said, turn them around so the openings face each other. If the material were stiff enough, you could flex your foot to grip/brace for a wave.

Mike


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