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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272096
05/01/14 04:51 PM
05/01/14 04:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Interesting concept.

What about that combined with a shallow well that your foot went into? Like an inch or less deep?


I'm boatless.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272097
05/01/14 05:35 PM
05/01/14 05:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Thanks, but I'll stick with the footstraps, tensioned as suggested, that have already worked for me for close to 10,000 miles of ocean racing. If you guys want to re-invent the wheel feel free. The chance of hurting yourself pitchpoling while trying to use a unproven device are way greater than getting hurt with what everyone has been using for a decade and a half.Just adjust the things right and it's not an issue.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272098
05/01/14 06:49 PM
05/01/14 06:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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Originally Posted by brucat
Tony, thanks for posting that, those look like a great option!

Ruling vs. interpretation is an interesting question.

The RRS provides a process which could be circular, depending upon who the measurer is.

RRS 43.1(c) and 78.3 require the measurer to decide if an equipment rule is broken, and if so, to report that to the RC.

RRS 60.2 requires the RC to file a protest if it receives such a report.

RRS 64.3(b) says that if the PC is in doubt about the meaning of a class rule, it shall ask the relevant authority for an interpretation, which the PC is then bound to follow when deciding the protest.

RRS 65.3 requires that if any PC penalizes a boat over a measurement rule [with or without 64.3(b) coming into play], it must report that back to the measurement authority.

Of course, RRS 62.1(a) allows a sailor to file for redress based on the actions of RC, PC and/or measurer; and unless otherwise prohibited, can also appeal any ruling.

So, for all practical purposes, unless the measurer is the class authority, his word ("ruling" interpretation or decision) is most definitely not final.

If he is the class authority, there might be some relief if the PC decides that the measurer is clearly mistaken, but I don't know if there's precedence for this.

EDIT: ERS is not a rule unless invoked by one of the docs listed under the definition of "rule" (NOR, SIs, class rules, Rx, ISAF Regs). The F18 class rules refer to ERS, but neither the A-Class nor the Hobie class rules do so. I'm not sure why not, as this would seem to be a great help for standardization for sailors, measurers and PCs...

Mike


Thoughts on this, anyone?

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272105
05/02/14 12:47 AM
05/02/14 12:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
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The problem I see with the skyhooks is how do you attach them to the hull without ripping them out of the deck during a crash? (Bigger attachment footprint would help).
Funny thing is, is that I would never buy this for my directional kitesurfboard, much better to go strapless smile

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272110
05/02/14 06:06 AM
05/02/14 06:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Thanks, but I'll stick with the footstraps, tensioned as suggested, that have already worked for me for close to 10,000 miles of ocean racing. If you guys want to re-invent the wheel feel free. The chance of hurting yourself pitchpoling while trying to use a unproven device are way greater than getting hurt with what everyone has been using for a decade and a half.Just adjust the things right and it's not an issue.


You sound like the guy that said the wheel was crap and would never pan out. And, "fire"? you'll just burn yourself....heeeeh.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jake] #272112
05/02/14 06:36 AM
05/02/14 06:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Thanks, but I'll stick with the footstraps, tensioned as suggested, that have already worked for me for close to 10,000 miles of ocean racing. If you guys want to re-invent the wheel feel free. The chance of hurting yourself pitchpoling while trying to use a unproven device are way greater than getting hurt with what everyone has been using for a decade and a half.Just adjust the things right and it's not an issue.


You sound like the guy that said the wheel was crap and would never pan out. And, "fire"? you'll just burn yourself....heeeeh.


What was that guys name again?
Please put all of that "ground breaking stuff" on your boat, especially the next time we're racing against each other.I expect to see skyhooks on your boat the next time I see it. What a great place this forum is where real life experience counts for nothing and an engineer or keyboard sailor's guess is inscribed in stone, especially if they have a high post count, 'cause ,Hey, we all know that's what really matters.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272114
05/02/14 07:32 AM
05/02/14 07:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Greenville SC
Has anyone looked up the price of the skyhooks?

At $20-30 per pair, straps are cheap and effective. They also last many years. I'm guessing those hooks are going to be costly when designed for our application. That cost is going to be a hurdle for developing them.

My straps received the most use as handles for moving the boat around on the beach. The bigger catamaran skyhook I have in my head doesn't seem that it would work as well for that use.

They do however seem to offer some advantages.

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272120
05/02/14 09:09 AM
05/02/14 09:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Thanks, but I'll stick with the footstraps, tensioned as suggested, that have already worked for me for close to 10,000 miles of ocean racing. If you guys want to re-invent the wheel feel free. The chance of hurting yourself pitchpoling while trying to use a unproven device are way greater than getting hurt with what everyone has been using for a decade and a half.Just adjust the things right and it's not an issue.


You sound like the guy that said the wheel was crap and would never pan out. And, "fire"? you'll just burn yourself....heeeeh.


What was that guys name again?
Please put all of that "ground breaking stuff" on your boat, especially the next time we're racing against each other.I expect to see skyhooks on your boat the next time I see it. What a great place this forum is where real life experience counts for nothing and an engineer or keyboard sailor's guess is inscribed in stone, especially if they have a high post count, 'cause ,Hey, we all know that's what really matters.


I don't know if it would ever work but it looks like an interesting thing to try. I probably won't have the time to ever put it together but I have a design in my head that will very likely work well and addresses all the concerns raised here. This is how new things come about - you try them and try to make them better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it takes a lot of refinement, sometimes it fails. Ever see Randy Smyth's scissors? America's cup on foils? It's not like this affects you in any way at all - good god man, why are you so angry and hateful?

(ps, and I'm actually a pretty good designer and have affected the delivery and handling of products you touch and drink every day)


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272122
05/02/14 09:13 AM
05/02/14 09:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.
[Linked Image]


That is interesting...it would do mostly the same thing and be safer. It would also not require part of the foot strap to be bolted to the back of the hull.


How will this keep your foot from getting washed off the hull side. That's all a footstrap is supposed to do anyway.


What about keeping you at the rear/footstrap when the bow stuffs and the boat decelerates, sending you up to 'check out the jib'?
IMHO, the footstrap is WAY more important to actually keep you back there for that.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jake] #272123
05/02/14 09:17 AM
05/02/14 09:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Thanks, but I'll stick with the footstraps, tensioned as suggested, that have already worked for me for close to 10,000 miles of ocean racing. If you guys want to re-invent the wheel feel free. The chance of hurting yourself pitchpoling while trying to use a unproven device are way greater than getting hurt with what everyone has been using for a decade and a half.Just adjust the things right and it's not an issue.


You sound like the guy that said the wheel was crap and would never pan out. And, "fire"? you'll just burn yourself....heeeeh.


What was that guys name again?
Please put all of that "ground breaking stuff" on your boat, especially the next time we're racing against each other.I expect to see skyhooks on your boat the next time I see it. What a great place this forum is where real life experience counts for nothing and an engineer or keyboard sailor's guess is inscribed in stone, especially if they have a high post count, 'cause ,Hey, we all know that's what really matters.


I don't know if it would ever work but it looks like an interesting thing to try. I probably won't have the time to ever put it together but I have a design in my head that will very likely work well and addresses all the concerns raised here. This is how new things come about - you try them and try to make them better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it takes a lot of refinement, sometimes it fails. Ever see Randy Smyth's scissors? America's cup on foils? It's not like this affects you in any way at all - good god man, why are you so angry and hateful?

(ps, and I'm actually a pretty good designer and have affected the delivery and handling of products you touch and drink every day)


I love how you sling an insult "you sound like.." and when someone responds in kind they are angry and hateful. Like I told Tad you raised your hand, don't get all butthurt when you get called on. You wanted to play...and that's all it is.

Quote
I'm actually a pretty good designer and have affected the delivery and handling of products you touch and drink every day)

And humble too. Well, this certainly makes you more than qualified to design footstraps for a sailboat, get on it or you'll be the new Doug lord in no time.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272127
05/02/14 10:02 AM
05/02/14 10:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
I would second the comment about the footstrap holding my back foot when the boat decelerates rapidly. The chicken lines work better, but sometimes it's not practical to rig them (for buoy racing, as an example)

I have been washed out of the back strap once or twice, but managed to stay with the boat using the mainsheet/spinsheet (sometimes it wasn't pretty, but worked).

Maybe a combination approach? Traditional strap at transom to keep you getting lurched forward, and some version of the skyhook thingy near the beam to help you from getting washed off the back?

Or maybe just velcro shoes?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 05/02/14 10:03 AM.

Jay

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272130
05/02/14 10:46 AM
05/02/14 10:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


I love how you sling an insult "you sound like.." and when someone responds in part they are angry and hateful. Like I told Tad you raised your hand, don't get all butthurt when you get called on. You wanted to play...and that's all it is.

Quote
I'm actually a pretty good designer and have affected the delivery and handling of products you touch and drink every day)

And humble too. Well, this certainly makes you more than qualified to design footstraps for a sailboat, get on it or you'll be the new Doug lord in no time.


"You sound like someone that said the wheel was a bad idea" while you are actually being negative and scorning new ideas, isn't exactly the same thing as calling you an ****. It was intended as a fun way to illustrate the fact that you were being negative on something that might prove out to be a worthwhile endeavor. Your negativity served no purpose. You don't have to buy it, believe in it, or hear anything about it. I'm sorry if I offended you.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272131
05/02/14 10:55 AM
05/02/14 10:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Greenville SC
What if the design was 2 of those hooks of a dense foam that basically formed a strap but had a seam or gap in between them that could release your foot when it saw a load other than shear?

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #272145
05/02/14 05:29 PM
05/02/14 05:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
..... Or maybe just velcro shoes? .....


Your fixing the problem at the wrong end....

the issue is the waves we encounter,
it can cause the boat to suddenly stop and thus sending us forward until we slam into the side shrouds
or
we actually are struck by the wave sending us off the back of the boat

so.....

we either get rid of the waves (not so easy)

or we fit a rudder-blade to our trap jackets (just below the shoulder blades) and that rudder must have winglets



as the wave strikes us the blade will keep us straight and the winglets will lift us clear of the water




its all about winglets I tell ya

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272148
05/02/14 06:32 PM
05/02/14 06:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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MOst all of us have used Chicken lines also, but

In the GT300, I think the tybe also;

Chris Green had a rig for his crew;

The was a line from the front and rear crossbar that the crew would pull tight and put into a jam cleat- one on each side- so it held him from going forward or backwards.
Seemed to work


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272156
05/03/14 06:58 AM
05/03/14 06:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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Chicken lines are allowed by SIs, and are not necessarily in class rules, correct? If so, there is a specific procedure for this, and it involves getting permission from the class association.

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Tony_F18] #272174
05/05/14 01:56 AM
05/05/14 01:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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France
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.
[Linked Image]

Are those strong enough? I imagine those were designed to lift a board weighting 3 kgs out of the water, not to stop a 95kgs man from flying forward…

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: pepin] #272175
05/05/14 03:09 AM
05/05/14 03:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 524
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands

Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/05/14 03:11 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
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