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Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274770
08/16/14 06:03 PM
08/16/14 06:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Jesus. Finally something else about this boat. Edge of my seat here.


I'm boatless.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Jake] #274784
08/17/14 10:59 AM
08/17/14 10:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay

Nice boat!

Originally Posted by Jake
With the light weight, it's probably possible to tip it over on the bows.


Doable, provided the spinnaker pole is easy to swing out of the way.

The use of Moth like (or equal) foil technology is a natural -and smart- move. It saves R&D time and money, plus the parts are readily available (or easy to scale up).

Still, J foils are probably less draggy, besides the practical advantages already mentioned in this thread.

No spi for me, please, just an upwind headsail for light conditions.


Luiz
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274787
08/17/14 05:14 PM
08/17/14 05:14 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



a couple of little things.

1. Moth style foils were tried on C-cats and proved slow. L/J/Z/C foils have proven fast. Obviously there are a lot of things that effect the cross over on where different systems are beneficial but right now the evidence points towards the non-wand systems being faster.

2. "52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power
provided by the crew. " <-- Moths modify this rule in their sailing instructions/class rules. As such sailing a boat like this in an event that doesn't change this rule would be impossible. It has taken how many years for cats to become "acceptable", how long will it take to get this rule dropped?

Last edited by Scarecrow; 08/17/14 05:16 PM.
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: ] #274789
08/17/14 06:30 PM
08/17/14 06:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
a couple of little things.

1. Moth style foils were tried on C-cats and proved slow. L/J/Z/C foils have proven fast. Obviously there are a lot of things that effect the cross over on where different systems are beneficial but right now the evidence points towards the non-wand systems being faster.

2. "52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power
provided by the crew. " <-- Moths modify this rule in their sailing instructions/class rules. As such sailing a boat like this in an event that doesn't change this rule would be impossible. It has taken how many years for cats to become "acceptable", how long will it take to get this rule dropped?


One could argue that the crew adjust the sails, sails capture wind propelling the boat forward, and the wands use the forward motion that resulted from the sailor's "power".

The intent of that rule was to disallow motorized, hydraulics, and/or other types of stored energy systems. I don't think there should be an issue with a wand tapping the surface of the water and adjusting a foil.


Jake Kohl
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: ] #274790
08/17/14 06:41 PM
08/17/14 06:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
B
Bille Offline
member
Bille  Offline
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B

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
a couple of little things.

...


I agree with what you say, but as a sailplane pilot and avid
HG pilot ; i really wouldn't mind having control over
the height above the water, on a machine like a foiling Catamaran.
IF
the controls were made Simple !!

Had this same discussion with a world class Rigid wing pilot
who also happens to be an airline captain, and avid sailor .
He's the one who convinced me of such .
Only the
inept arm-chair sailors
Need a devise that does this automatically.

Think about it : Your on a broad-reach, in 3-ft chop; you
really want some mechanical devise telling Ya how High you should be above the water ?

Bille

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Jake] #274792
08/17/14 07:37 PM
08/17/14 07:37 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted by Jake

One could argue that the crew adjust the sails, sails capture wind propelling the boat forward, and the wands use the forward motion that resulted from the sailor's "power".

The intent of that rule was to disallow motorized, hydraulics, and/or other types of stored energy systems. I don't think there should be an issue with a wand tapping the surface of the water and adjusting a foil.


I 100% agree and the issue expressed isn't mine but the accepted interpretation by the one class that has made foiling a true success and the reason they write the change of ISAF rules into their rules. Which is my point about the need for a rule change or an official interpretation. If I was one of the people behind this project I'd be contacting the ISAF and getting an official interpretation before investing production and marketing funds. This won't be a cheap boat and if is to be a success it will be racing sailors buying it and they wont buy it if they're worried about being protested out of big events.

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274799
08/18/14 01:57 AM
08/18/14 01:57 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
What is the point of this boat?

1: To be faster than archimedan beachcats

2: To be a foiling beachcat

3: To be a line-honors beachcat

4: Have fun


When comparing the technology in this boat with "Off Yer Rocker", why is this boat a possible success compared to the first foiling C-class? Is the wand control system a "faster" solution compared to non-adjusting foils?


Do get meg right. I really like this boat and effort! Would definately like to have one myself smile

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274800
08/18/14 05:12 AM
08/18/14 05:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
I feel that without details and numbers from the foils, we can't really say that this boat has foils just like those C foils. I'm not sure that we are comparing apples to apples.

I think it's rather exciting, a 75kg double handed sounds nice! I am prepared to be let down on the price though.

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274801
08/18/14 06:05 AM
08/18/14 06:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline OP
journeyman
NacramanUK  Offline OP
journeyman
N

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
Foil testing......

Foil testing


Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #274802
08/18/14 06:59 AM
08/18/14 06:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
addict
Redtwin  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
What is the point of this boat?

1: To be faster than archimedan beachcats

2: To be a foiling beachcat

3: To be a line-honors beachcat

4: Have fun


When comparing the technology in this boat with "Off Yer Rocker", why is this boat a possible success compared to the first foiling C-class? Is the wand control system a "faster" solution compared to non-adjusting foils?


Rolf,
That's exactly what I was thinking. What speed is the boat traveling in the vortex test video? I would be curious to compare numbers with non-foiling (F-18?) and other foiling boats in the same conditions. The Whisper does seem to get up on foils pretty early but that doesn't surprise me comparing the lifting surface area. I bet it has an advantage in low wind but would get mowed down by a c-foiling boat once the wind picked up. I'm not an engineer or a scientist so this is all layman speculation.

I think the Whisper would be a hoot to use in a light/moderate wind Round the Island. At least until you get to the "narrows".

Regardless of the price it will be out of my budget, but I would be surprised if it comes out any lower than 30K. I would think a great price would be in the low to mid 20s. Heck, at that price I may own a used one in a decade or two.







Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274803
08/18/14 07:48 AM
08/18/14 07:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
I think just about everything will get taken out by a modern C -Cat wouldn't it? But, hardly anyone can afford one, very few sail them, even less build them.

I just want to know how this, or any of the other readily available foiling boats, do around the cans. Does this, the Phantom, or the Nacra 20 foil going upwind? Do they go upwind well? How ugly are the tacks and gybes?

This thing looks, really cool and right up my alley. But if it can't go to weather for crap, there's no point for me. That's the downside of any of these videos. You can't really tell how they would do against another design. Line it up against a A-Cat, an F16, and an F18 on a windward leeward and see how they stack up.

It sure looks stable!

I'd bet by the time you get one shipped to the US, it'd be pushing close to $40k.


I'm boatless.
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274804
08/18/14 08:12 AM
08/18/14 08:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Why would this foiler be more successful than this one:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7984


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: Karl_Brogger] #274805
08/18/14 08:23 AM
08/18/14 08:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I think just about everything will get taken out by a modern C -Cat wouldn't it? But, hardly anyone can afford one, very few sail them, even less build them.

I just want to know how this, or any of the other readily available foiling boats, do around the cans. Does this, the Phantom, or the Nacra 20 foil going upwind? Do they go upwind well? How ugly are the tacks and gybes?

This thing looks, really cool and right up my alley. But if it can't go to weather for crap, there's no point for me. That's the downside of any of these videos. You can't really tell how they would do against another design. Line it up against a A-Cat, an F16, and an F18 on a windward leeward and see how they stack up.

It sure looks stable!

I'd bet by the time you get one shipped to the US, it'd be pushing close to $40k.


I think there's some confusion on the terminology - I think somebody started talking about "c shaped foils" (which are old tech...I think they mean "J" boards like the America's Cup and C-cats used). Somebody mentioned C-cats and made it all confusing.


Jake Kohl
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: David Ingram] #274807
08/18/14 08:28 AM
08/18/14 08:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Why would this foiler be more successful than this one:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7984


GREAT Point! that boat has all but been forgotten! But, to address your question, the Windrider Rave weighed in around 400lbs and setup time was measured in fractions of a day.

We should also ask the same question about this one that predates the Rave. The trifoiler came around in the early 90's (I think).
Hobie Trifoiler


Jake Kohl
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274809
08/18/14 08:35 AM
08/18/14 08:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
Because the trifoiler, although fun, sucks in anything but the ideal conditions and point of sail.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274815
08/18/14 10:19 AM
08/18/14 10:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
addict
Redtwin  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Yeah, I was talking about C-shaped foils, not the C-cats.


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274833
08/18/14 05:27 PM
08/18/14 05:27 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



The reason C-cats were brought up (by me) was because the Canadians went down the same design path as the "whisper" 7 years ago when they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars building "Off Yer Rocker"
[Linked Image]

And of course half way through the event, because it was slow, they did this:

[Linked Image]

Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274839
08/18/14 09:39 PM
08/18/14 09:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W

Ah yes, the Ketterman tri foiler. I think he sold to Hobie?
My old boat, the 'Millenium Falcon' sailed right by once one day when someone brought one to the TX City Dike.
That boat that's in my Avatar
It was on it's foils, I was on a close reach, not going to weather, and not quite beam.

Last edited by Todd_Sails; 08/18/14 09:41 PM.

F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: NacramanUK] #274840
08/18/14 09:57 PM
08/18/14 09:57 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S




Last edited by Scarecrow; 08/18/14 09:58 PM.
Re: New UK designed and built foiling catamaran [Re: ] #274849
08/19/14 03:41 PM
08/19/14 03:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
B
Bille Offline
member
Bille  Offline
member
B

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
a couple of little things.

1. Moth style foils were tried on C-cats and proved slow. L/J/Z/C foils have proven fast. Obviously there are a lot of things that effect the cross over on where different systems are beneficial but right now the evidence points towards the non-wand systems being faster.

...


Moth style foils are called T-foils.
T-foils are slower than J-foils.
BUT
We use T-foils with our kite boards ; and they have
gone over 40kts with them. That's NOT too Bad ?

Seriously -- if i were to build a catamaran for the purpose
of selling it ; i wouldn't Want it to go much faster than
35-kts, because of liability issues !! ?
I WOULD want it to be Very stable, and easy to sail.

Up-wind on a T-foil with a kite board ; they will Blow-by
any conventional devise currently available ; and do it
in Less wind. SO a decently designed T-foil should do
quite well on a catamaran.

Wing loading on the hydrofoil, has proven to be a BIG
thing with our kite boards ; wonder if it affects a heavier
catamaran as well ?

Bille

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