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Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video #274868
08/20/14 02:30 PM
08/20/14 02:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Below is the video I threw together of the first mark rounding near Ocean Deck. The Music is from Mike Mineo (www.MikeMineo.com) who is Chip Collard's (Delray Commodore) stepson.

http://youtu.be/KWOKxaKi0sA

I have a couple of videos from Florida 300 done I will be posting soon too.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
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Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: cyberspeed] #274885
08/21/14 06:16 AM
08/21/14 06:16 AM
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Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Pretty cool. The waves certainly have to play into your strategy.

Did that H16 foul those guys (around 40 seconds in)? They came out of the rounding in pretty good position.

Last edited by tshan; 08/21/14 06:16 AM.

Tom
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tshan] #274886
08/21/14 06:37 AM
08/21/14 06:37 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by tshan
Pretty cool. The waves certainly have to play into your strategy.

Did that H16 foul those guys (around 40 seconds in)? They came out of the rounding in pretty good position.


In my opinion, yes.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tshan] #274888
08/21/14 09:03 AM
08/21/14 09:03 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by tshan
Did that H16 foul those guys (around 40 seconds in)? They came out of the rounding in pretty good position.

Well, photographic evidence is always suspect, because it can be difficult to judge distances due to perspective. That said, however, this video angle is pretty good.

It looks to me like the Hobie 16 gybes about 4-5 boatlengths from the mark (outside the zone), but I'll do the rule analysis both ways. If she gybed outside the zone, then:
  • At times 0:25-0:41 the H16 is overlapped with 5 boats (purple spin, 2 non-spins, red spin, and blue spin). H16 is on starboard tack, the others are all on port tack. All 5 must keep clear of H16 (rule 10) and they do.
  • At time 0:42, H16 gybes. Now rule 11 applies. H16 must keep clear of the boats to leeward, and she does. Purple is either overlapped to windward of H16 or very quickly becomes so. She must keep clear, and she does. All 6 boats sail together until time 0:44.
  • At time 0:44, purple (the boat closest to the mark) reaches the zone. Per rule 18.2(b), all the other boats must thereafter give her mark-room. Per rule 18.2(b), all the boats outside H16 must thereafter give her mark-room.
  • At times 0:44-0:59, the boats sail to the mark. Purple (due to a slow takedown and/or a wave) sails wide of the mark. H16 pulls between Purple and the mark. The other boats give them mark-room (although they don't all keep clear of each other).
  • At times 0:59-1:02, H16 and Purple round the mark. During that time, H16 has given Purple mark-room and has kept clear of her. Purple never shut the door on H16.
H16 did not break any rule. Now let's consider the rules if H16 were within 48 feet of the mark when she gybed:
  • At times 0:25-0:41, H16 is overlapped with the other boats and has right-of-way under rule 10. Per rule 18.2(b), all other boats must thereafter give H16 mark-room. When in the zone, rule 18.4 requires H16 sail no further than necessary to sail her proper course before gybing.
  • At time 0:42, H16 gybes, satisfying rule 18.4.
  • After time 0:42, H16 takes the mark-room to which she is entitled.
Again, H16 breaks no rule.

It appears to me that the Nacra and the Prindle (the non-spins) might both break rule 11 at time 0:59. The Prindle would be exonerated under rule 64.1(a).

The boat that really does well, is the one with the smoke-color round-top mainsail. She comes from behind and shoots through the hole right behind the H16. Poor Red has a bad douse followed by a bad tack and falls behind.

Those who might object to H16 and Round-top taking room to which they are not entitled, I refer to ISAF Case 63, which states "at a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space".

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: Isotope235] #274893
08/21/14 11:33 AM
08/21/14 11:33 AM
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Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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I was the F16 with purple spin.

The H16 came into the mark hailing "Mark Room" and as I had nowhere to go but up I sailed windward of her. Upon completing the gybe, the H16 headed up and struck my rudder housing; promptly hailing PROTEST for not keeping clear.

I then caught a wave and scooted to the mark. I didn't "close out" the Hobie 16 as I had no dagger boards frown so you can see my "slipping" as I was rounding. I was also trying to give the H16 some room as I wasn't sure of the 3 boat circle.

The H16 touched my port hull as the wave brought her around the mark. She called for PROTEST again.

I sailed clear and did a circle.



USA 777
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tback] #274894
08/21/14 12:25 PM
08/21/14 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by tback
I was the F16 with purple spin.

I then caught a wave and scooted to the mark. I didn't "close out" the Hobie 16 as I had no dagger boards frown so you can see my "slipping" as I was rounding.


Boards, F16's don't need no stinkin boards!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tback] #274895
08/21/14 12:27 PM
08/21/14 12:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Lol, this is why I usually refrain from commenting on actual incidents. Invariably, people who were present chime in with differing (usually contradictory) accounts of what actually happened. Without an actual protest hearing, with its "finding of fact", nobody can give a true appraisal of the rules.

This does serve, however, to illustrate the problem with photographic evidence. When looking at the video, I did not see the contact you mention - the perspective makes it hard to see.

Hypothetically speaking, if a boat on starboard tack gybes to leeward of a port tack boat, and immediately rounds up and makes contact, then the gybing boat would probably be found to have broken rule 16.1 (by changing course without giving the other boat room to keep clear). Also, if an inside windward boat contacts an outside leeward boat during a mark rounding, then the windward boat breaks rule 11 (by not keeping clear), and probably rule 14 as well.

Who would be penalized depends entirely on whether the starboard tack boat was inside or outside the zone when she gybed. If she was in the zone, then the gybing boat would be exonerated for breaking rules 16 and 11 under rule 21(a), and for breaking rule 14 (provided there was no damage nor injury) under rule 14(b).

If the starboard tack boat was outside the zone when she gybed, then she receives no exoneration. Instead, the other boat would be exonerated for breaking rule 11 (first contact) under rule 64.1(a). The other boat would likely either not break rule 14, or would be exonerated under rule 14(b).

Either way (still speaking hypothetically) one penalty turn would not be sufficient. There were two separate incidents of contact, and each would require its own penalty. See US Sailing Appeal 65, which states "the test of whether two occurrences were one or two incidents is whether the second occurrence was the inevitable result of the first". As (hypothetically) described, the second contact was not "the inevitable result" of the first.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: cyberspeed] #274896
08/21/14 12:50 PM
08/21/14 12:50 PM
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Eastern NC, USA
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tshan Offline
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Thanks. Those big rollers make closing distances and times vary (one sent sent tback past the H16, but then another wave pushes the H16 back up to tback at the mark). Is there any dispensation for wave action or is it assumed you can navigate independent of wave action?

Agreed that the smoke colored sail made out like a bandit. Comes in wide and leaves close to the mark.


Tom
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: Isotope235] #274897
08/21/14 12:59 PM
08/21/14 12:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope235
Without an actual protest hearing, with its "finding of fact", nobody can give a true appraisal of the rules.



Eric


Eric,

quite to the contrary, I find your analysis to be very succinct and helpful in evaluating what I'd do in similar situations.

I keep telling myself that I am going to stop being that guy that doesn't apply the rules, instead bringing the discussion here (that's the easy way out).

Thanks Eric


Terry


USA 777
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tback] #274899
08/21/14 01:58 PM
08/21/14 01:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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next time, Terry, just use the "Karl #2 method":

Grab cutlass
Board offending yacht
Chop down mast/shrouds
Pillage
Carry off young maidens
Set alight offending yacht

Seems to work out from a historical perspective... And reduces time spent in protest room


Jay

Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tback] #274902
08/21/14 04:50 PM
08/21/14 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Frankly, I think you should have kept going to be beach and handed in your tiller for letting the H16 beat you to the leeward mark in the first place!


Jake Kohl
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: cyberspeed] #274903
08/21/14 07:44 PM
08/21/14 07:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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What was the camera platform, a quad copter drone? Very cool!

Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: cyberspeed] #274904
08/21/14 08:02 PM
08/21/14 08:02 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Great video and great rules discussion, to me it looked like there was a chance of contact once the Hobie 16 gybed in front of the other boats, this was avoided when the F16 went around it but it looks like if that wave had caught the F16 a few seconds earlier it would probably have surfed the F16 over the back of the Hobie 16. To me it looks like the Hobie 16's bow swung past the proper course at 45 seconds, if he sailed that line he would have been above the mark, then went even further above the line to the mark a couple of seconds later causing the collision. Isn't the main rule to avoid collision, the other rule not above proper course, if so wasn't that the cause of contact the Hobie losing control. It also looks to me that the Hobie 16 also had no rights against the F16 rounding the mark as it was in the zone after the F16 so was barging

Last edited by JeffS; 08/21/14 08:05 PM.

Jeff Southall
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Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
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Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: Jake] #274908
08/22/14 07:15 AM
08/22/14 07:15 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Frankly, I think you should have kept going to be beach and handed in your tiller for letting the H16 beat you to the leeward mark in the first place!


+1000.....

I agree with Eric, the video is inconclusive, especially regarding the distance to the mark, which will be the fact upon which this entire case hangs.

Having said that, if outside of the zone, I think the H16 is on thin ice for gybing right in front of the other boats, regardless of whether contact was made.

Mike

Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: brucat] #274909
08/22/14 07:28 AM
08/22/14 07:28 AM
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Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
[quote=Jake]

I agree with Eric, the video is inconclusive, especially regarding the distance to the mark, which will be the fact upon which this entire case hangs.


Mike


Isn't there something in the rules referencing that if in question on being within the 3 Boat circle one should assume you're not (similar to whether an overlap got broken)?

Last edited by tback; 08/22/14 07:29 AM.

USA 777
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: tback] #274910
08/22/14 07:32 AM
08/22/14 07:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by brucat
[quote=Jake]

I agree with Eric, the video is inconclusive, especially regarding the distance to the mark, which will be the fact upon which this entire case hangs.


Mike


Isn't there something in the rules referencing that if in question on being within the 3 Boat circle one should assume you're not (similar to whether an overlap got broken)?


I think it used to say something like that. It was/is "If in doubt, assume you are in the zone".

edit; I found it. It's in 18.2 d)

Quote
18.2(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.


but...errr...wait a minute. which one? obtained or broke overlap? If "reasonable doubt" could go either way, then what is the point of this rule? That should fall into a duh-huh.


Jake Kohl
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: cyberspeed] #274911
08/22/14 07:44 AM
08/22/14 07:44 AM
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Well said if your not racing for cattle stations and you gybe in front of other boats that avoid a collision then round up past the correct course and hit one of them probably sorry is the hail rather than protest


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: Jake] #274913
08/22/14 08:34 AM
08/22/14 08:34 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Quote
18.2(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.

but...errr...wait a minute. which one? obtained or broke overlap? If "reasonable doubt" could go either way, then what is the point of this rule? That should fall into a duh-huh.

Either one. Imagine:
  1. Two boats are approaching a mark and one is overtaking from clear astern. They become overlapped very close to the zone. Boat A claims that she was still ahead at the zone. Boat B claims that she gained overlap just before A reached the zone.
  2. Two boats are overlapped approaching a mark, but one is pulling away from the other. They become clear ahead/clear astern very close to the zone. Boat A claims that she broke overlap just before she reached the zone. Boat B claims that overlap was broken just afterwards.
In the first case, there is reasonable doubt that an overlap was established in time. In the second case, there is reasonable doubt that overlap was broken in time. Therefore, Protest Committee must presume that the overlap was not gained in time in scenario 1, and that it was not broken in time in scenario 2.

This is the one place that the rules place a burden of proof on one boat or the other. It is up to the boat claiming to have gained or to have broken overlap to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that she did so in time.

Given that it is quite difficult to determine exactly where the zone begins on the water, RRS 18.2(d) makes it easier for boats to apply RRS 18.2(b) while racing.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: Isotope235] #274914
08/22/14 09:31 AM
08/22/14 09:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Eric,

Thanks as always...I think I've got it now. When there is debate it is about whether one or the other happened (either obtained or broke overlap).

So, in the case where they are debating if they obtained overlap, with any reasonable doubt, it should be assumed that the overlap was not obtained.

In the case where they are debating if they broke overlap before entering the zone, the assumption should be that they did not break overlap.

The takeaway you have while racing is, if you are not absolutely positive that you have established or broken overlap before the zone, assume that you have not and proceed with this in mind.


Jake Kohl
Re: Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video [Re: cyberspeed] #274915
08/22/14 09:51 AM
08/22/14 09:51 AM
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brucat Offline
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That rule works well for boats on the same tack, or at least not maneuvering. This case presents an interesting challenge for a jury. The closest boat gybed, probably just outside of the zone, and was passed while gybing, overlap was created basically as they were entering the zone, or just before, and all because of where the H16 gybed.

Mike

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