Nice takeaway Jake



Mike... "nice problem for the jury!!!" hmm.... maybe true but the rules are trying to NOT make for interesting cases...

The principle underlying Jake's take home is "You can take advantage of mistakes by others.. but the rules themselves are not a weapon to use to win in the corners.

I would add... the underlying notion that you can use the rules to gain an advantage at the corners is not valid and we can forget that...If you race into the corner with that mindset....chances are you foul...

old farts remember our younger impressionable days and remember lots of stories from the top of the fleet about how you did this kind of thing.... it was part of the game... the more balls you had.... the better the result.
The current rules requires an attitude adjustment.... to the bigger your balls... the more success you have mindset.

playing with big heavy monohulls drives home the principal... the rules are not weapons at the corners. If you haven't passed the guy... before the corner... don't push your luck.. chances are you can't prove you did not foul.

the powers that be are always trying to make the game a bit more "elegant" by trying to get the language they use just right and universally understood. Its tough!

Yo so I was the guy in the H16 at the mark. Firstly I want to say sorry to Terry, I totally didn't mean to clip your rudder coming out of that gybe. I sail catamarans like twice a year at most, so the gybing thing where you have to throw the tiller off the back of the boat and pass it around the mainsheet... Im not used to that. And the wave hitting us at the same time didnt help either.

I knew I was performing an agressive maneuver there. Because how close the mark was to the beach and because H16's don't point well, we wanted to get inside at the mark so we could tack out at our first opportunity. Thats why we did an early gybe and came in on starboard in the first place.

After the contact I didnt know if I was in the right or the wrong. Thats why I yelled protest like 3 times. What I learned from college sailing is that whoever yells "protest" the quickest, loudest, and most confidently, normally coerces the other boat into doing turns first. So yeah. Sorry about that.

Nice to meet you all by the way. Ive never been on here before.

Props to you Joel for coming out to sail with those guys.... AND for being right up with them at C gate:)

You'll learn a lot from the expert discussion on this thread.

Mark, you read too much into that. Imagine if this case came to the room without the video. Establishing the distance and overlap situation based only on verbal testimony would be challenging.

I personally agree about the rules as a weapon, but match racers and team racers (thus college sailors at the top schools) are absolutely taught tactics based upon the explicit verbiage (what is said and not said) of the rules. There are those who feel strongly that it is a key part of our sport at the highest level. To your point, this really only works on dinghys, supplied boats or by guys with more cash than they know what to do with...

Mike

Here's how I saw it, on the video that is.

What tack did the H16 come in on again?

The outer 2 boats were trying to give room.
The inner (Purple)boat did keep clear,
the H16 (and by his admission on here about gybing the tiller 'behind' the maisheet- isn't that how you 'tack' too? but I digress) he went to high and actually 'fouled' the inside boat. You can't just steer up and tag someone and yell 'protest'.

That was some light air, at first I thought it was in slow motion.

The way I see it, until H16 gybed onto port, He HAD rights- as in to sail a bit farther, etc.

The way it played out- the only foul I saw on video, was the h16 tagging the other boat when he lost control during the gybe. The three boats coming in on Port looked as though they were trying to 'avoid' the starboard boat, which did indeed gybe onto 'port' right in front of them.

Would this also be true of reaching the zone?

If he was a collegiate sailor, he's probably closer to being an expert than many of us on a weekend race course!

Be very careful about bringing lessons from collegiate sailing into regular fleet racing. ISSA "class rules" change several racing rules (particularly RRS 42). Also, some college coaches teach the sailors to play it a little "fast and loose" with the rules. I've seen multiple sailors get into trouble after coming out of college sailing programs.

Particularly, if a sailor believes he has broken a rule, or doesn't know whether his or the other boat has broken a rule, but tries to intimidate the other boat into giving way or taking a penalty, then he breaks Rule 2 "Fair Sailing".

Welcome to the forum, and please take the above as advice, not criticism.

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

Yes and no.

The rules are written such that one boat cannot really force another to commit a foul (although nothing prevents a boat from willfully sailing into an untenable position). One can, however, use the rules to one's own advantage. That's why I originally began to study the rules (not because I enjoy protest hearings).

If you work out rule scenarios ahead of time, and learn to recognize them about to happen on the water, then you can often maneuver into a controlling position. I've won many races by doing exactly that.

I occasionally toy with the idea of writing a book called "how to use the rules to your advantage". I don't know what I would say, but I think the title alone would make it sell

Regards,
Eric

Well said Eric, we have a culture of not protesting where I sail which is fair enough as long as everyone is happy, after rereading the rules it appears you don't have to take your penalty on the water if you don't want to, unless someone protests you there is no penalty, then you take your chances in the room. We had a race last year where 180 of the 210 trailerable boats missed a mark by 2km, just followed like sheep above it, it took a lot of work to make the protest work for the few beachcats that did round the mark but none of the other fleets had their protests upheld due to not filing a viable protest they just grizzled but did nothing

Take a look at the "Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules", which states: "Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire".

If a boat breaks a rule, she is expected to take a penalty whether another boat protests or not. Protest Committee is the arbiter of the rules, not the enforcer.

Regards,
Eric

Without a protest hearing, there is no finding of fact, so without getting into that, allow me to propose another "take-away".

If a boat entitled to room or mark-room by rule 18, 19, or 20 breaks rule 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, or 31 (the basic right-of-way rules, acquiring r-o-w, changing course, and touching a mark) while sailing within that room (or mark-room), then she is exonerated under rule 21. If that boat is not entitled to room or mark-room, or if she is sailing beyond the room (or mark-room) to which she is entitled, then she does not receive exoneration.

Therefore, a boat may maneuver within the mark-room she deserves, but may not take more room than that.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Judge,
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

THIS.

Too many sailors [in my opinion] know they've fouled someone but don't do turns unless PRTOESTED.

So to encourage better sportmanship, I propose the ALS Challenge here within the forum and on the water:

Always Live (by) Sportmanship.

Govern yourself and don't be afraid to take someone to "the room".

tback

Spot on, we probably just need to take a couple to the room here to get it sorted

The picture distorts the distance. I was the boat with the smoke colored sails coming in with a pretty good view of what was happening. All the port boats had understood the mark and were coming in dead down wind. The 16 was coming in hot on starboard. We slowed down seeing that this was going to be ugly and figured they would all be past the mark by the time we got there. It looked like the H16 was within the 3 boat length circle when he jibed. With the wall of boat coming at him it appeared that he jibed early to avoid mayhem. Being that everyone was going dead down wind the only safe out for the F16 was to go inside the mark douse the come back to round. I don't think he could have gone deeper without jibing. With the surf and everyone doing dead down wind none of the boats had any real maneuvering room.
Think about how ugly it would have gotten if the H16 had decided to not jibe early and pressed starboard tack another 20 feet(where he should have jibbed for a proper rounding). All the port tack boats would have had to jib to avoid.

certainly that (H16 holding starboard gybe longer) would have caused mass chaos amongst the downwind boats. But would have made for dang good TV to armchair sailors...

From the little bit of umpiring I've done, I fully agree that the viewing angle is the absolute worst place to be to determine the zone.

Assuming the H16 was in the zone, he did nothing wrong (other than maybe gybed too soon; or went too far with his gybe, but one could argue that the passing boat did not keep clear).

Assuming that the H16 was outside of the zone, he gybed in a bad place, right in front of the other boats.

Coming into a mark on port is a risky move, especially in a tight group. If the H16 stayed on starboard, as he had every right to do, the port boats have to avoid. That is 100% on them, not the starboard boat. Of course, without mark room involved, you can't just gybe in front of anyone. With mark room involved, you're expected to sail around the mark as Eric mentioned, so a gybe in that area would be expected.

Mike

I thought we concluded that rule 16 was violated if he was outside the zone.

http://youtu.be/KWOKxaKi0sA

Bump the link in case you all, like me, are tired of having to go back to page one to re-look at the video.

Philip, I agree, is that not what I said (without the rule reference)?

Mike