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Reefer Madness #275063
08/28/14 10:10 PM
08/28/14 10:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
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Jeff Peterson  Offline OP
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(This is a continuation of of a hijacked thread that wandered into the topic of reefing.)

I'd like an extensive discussion on reefing. I don't think you read much about it on this web site, because this site is usually concerned about how to go fast, how to win regattas, and how to modify your boat to go fast and win regattas. Reefing doesn't usually fit that formula.

Let's answer some basic questions, then see where the discussuon goes.

How do you reef?
What knots do you tie off sails with?
How do you fold or tuck the excess sail, as not to damage it and to have it look tidy?
What do you do with the battens?
How do you downhaul a reefed sail?
Can you reef a sail without reef points and associated hardware?
Can you think of more basic questions about reefing?



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275065
08/29/14 01:59 AM
08/29/14 01:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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[Linked Image]
This is a modern picture and there are reef points.
For this boat; question 1: After you set the reefing halyard lock, down haul thru the front reef point. bowline to the aft reef point with the outhaul line. Roll up the loose part of the sail with the batten in and run 1 continuous line thru all the reef points but only tied at the ends with half hitches. Don't point load the middle reef points. Shock cord also will work to keep the extra sail cloth rolled up. Down haul and out haul normally.
Also they reefed in the extreme sailing series at Cardif last week but the wind died after they reefed. The x 40s reef when mandated by the RC.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jollyrodgers] #275069
08/29/14 07:43 AM
08/29/14 07:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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The Watertribe events require the ability to reduce sail. Some multihull teams have come up with a halyard extension that they would shackle to the head of the sail and connect that to the existing halyard ring. The sail would be rehoisted and the ring hooked like normal. The sail has a series of grommets matching that height difference so the sail can be lashed to the boom...and a large eye at the clew for the mainsheet attachement.

This does, however, require that the sail be completely lowered in order to attach the halyard extension.


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275070
08/29/14 09:15 AM
08/29/14 09:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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I had a halyard extension fabricated out of alum flat bar, with a fork that slips over the head of the mainsail and is secured with a clevis pin, and a hole in the other end that the hlyd ring attaches to. This keeps the ring in the correct orientation to the main, to allow easy disengagement from the hook when lowering the mainsail.

The rolling and lashing of the excess sailcloth is tough to do cleanly, and it strikes me as mildly damaging to the sail, particularly laminate sailcloths. But unavoidable I guess, and the safety offered by the ability to reef is very valuable on large bodies of water. Downhaul system might need to be modified to attach to the new tack in a fashion that allows it to pull fairly directly.

The sail definitely needs to be modified to include new reinforced tack and clew grommets, as well as 2 or 3 grommets installed to allow a line(s) to be used to secure the excess material. The batten(s) will be parallel to the boom, so not a problem.

Having to drop the main to reef is problematic, considering the conditions you'll be in when it's needed. Keeping the main onboard while keeping the boat into the wind on a lumpy sea in a blow, is a challenge. As is getting it up again, and tidying up, still keeping the bows windward. Would be helpful if you could get to a lee shore to do all this, but that's not often an option.

So the system needs to be thought out, and tested before you need it. It's unlikely you're going to get a really good sail shape reefed, but the substantially reduced sail area is more of a safety feature than a performance item.

If you're looking high wind performance, consider having one built specifically for your boat/mast. I know Jay Glaser has experience with this, and I imagine most of the multihull sailmakers do too. But this option doesn't help you if you're caught out in increasing breeze with your full size main.

Dave

Hey Jeff! Where is Big Marine Lake? I get back to MN most summers, I spend a week or so on Lake Minnetonka, and try to get a sail in with the Fleet 444 guys who often sail on Lake Pepin.

Last edited by davefarmer; 08/29/14 09:20 AM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275071
08/29/14 09:15 AM
08/29/14 09:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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I had a halyard extension fabricated out of alum flat bar, with a fork that slips over the head of the mainsail and is secured with a clevis pin, and a hole in the other end that the hlyd ring attaches to. This keeps the ring in the correct orientation to the main, to allow easy disengagement from the hook when lowering the mainsail.

The rolling and lashing of the excess sailcloth is tough to do cleanly, and it strikes me as mildly damaging to the sail, particularly laminate sailcloths. But unavoidable I guess, and the safety offered by the ability to reef is very valuable on large bodies of water. Downhaul system might need to be modified to attach to the new tack in a fashion that allows it to pull fairly directly.

The sail definitely needs to be modified to include new reinforced tack and clew grommets, as well as 2 or 3 grommets installed to allow a line(s) to be used to secure the excess material. The batten(s) will be parallel to the boom, so not a problem.

Having to drop the main to reef is problematic, considering the conditions you'll be in when it's needed. Keeping the main onboard while keeping the boat into the wind on a lumpy sea in a blow, is a challenge. As is getting it up again, and tidying up, still keeping the bows windward. Would be helpful if you could get to a lee shore to do all this, but that's not often an option.

So the system needs to be thought out, and tested before you need it. It's unlikely you're going to get a really good sail shape reefed, but the substantially reduced sail area is more of a safety feature than a performance item.

If you're looking high wind performance, consider having one built specifically for your boat/mast. I know Jay Glaser has experience with this, and I imagine most of the multihull sailmakers do too. But this option doesn't help you if you're caught out in increasing breeze with your full size main.

Dave

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: davefarmer] #275073
08/29/14 09:54 AM
08/29/14 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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could you add a second halyard "hook" a bit down the mast and just hook the ring to that when reefing?

I'm thinking that if you're reducing sail due to conditions, you probably aren't as concerned about the perfect sail shape and therefore won't be using your 60:1 downhaul on maximum, but you do need some ability to keep the sail relatively flat.

I presume the hook won't rub the sail when not in use as the mast rotates enough to keep it off the laminate?

Can you roll the foot of the sail around the boom and reattach the mainsheet to keep the extra material out of the way? I would guess unless your roach is wider than the foot, you could get away with it...

All of this would take a little skill on the water, but you're supposed to reef early anyway. If you're expecting 30+, it'd probably be too late.

How about righting a boat that flips with a reefed main. Would it be more likely to go turtle without the sail at the top of the mast?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 08/29/14 09:55 AM.

Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275080
08/29/14 11:08 AM
08/29/14 11:08 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Gary Friesen had this all worked out for his Catalina crossings. A special and longer metal fitting for hooking the sail. Reefing points in the sail, new downhaul fitting and hey presto. All this is possibly available in the archives of the beachcats maillist?

Gary also prototyped and sold a special "walk the plank" righting device.

If we are going to sail upwind with a reefed mainail, the shape will be less than optimal due to the changed luff curve.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275083
08/29/14 12:07 PM
08/29/14 12:07 PM

M
MN3
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M



my friend used a "larger than beachcat sized" clutch that he could engage to hold his halyard in a reefed height and he had reef holes incorporated in his new mainsail.

PS his goal was to be able to handle florida summer pop up storms with his wife and young daughter onboard to get back to beach. I know he tested it but don't think he ever "needed it".

I think he is racing sunday at the Union Regatta on our causeway and will try to get pics if i remember/see him on the beach prior to the start of the race

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: davefarmer] #275088
08/29/14 10:17 PM
08/29/14 10:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
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Dave,

Big Marine Lake is located in northeast Washington County.

There used to be an annual official Hobie regatta on the lake, until Ray Richardson sold his property into the Regional Park. Ray and Ray's neighbor let the regatta operate from their properties. (That regatta then moved to Green Lake, near Spicer.) Those were the days when Hobie sails were all sorts of colors. The lake looked like it was invaded by giant colorful butterflies. -Those are long gone days, now. Oh well...



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jollyrodgers] #275091
08/30/14 11:51 AM
08/30/14 11:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
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In theory, I like the idea of reefing my Hobie 16. My old boats have the reef points on the sails and the reef slugs on the halyard. -But I worry about the risk of damage to the sails.

To refresh my concerns, I dug out my old Hobie 16 Assembly Manual (Part No. 2345-000 Revised 7-80, copyright December 1980, Price $4.00) This is a seperate manual, not the assembly manual that comes with the boat. On pages 24, & 25, it shows some nice pictures on reefing. But the reefing instructions still leave me with concerns about risk to the mainsail. Since I live on a lake, its just easier for me to wait for a less windy day.

But still, I am curious about reefing. If I ever get an extra, old blown out sail, I would then try it. It then would be good to have an extra boom for that extra sail. But with all this extra stuff, it might be more practical to have a sailmaker modify the sail to the size of a reefed sail, and use it as a storm sail. The storm sail would have continous attachment to the boom, instead of being held at just four reef points.

It may be that, on a Hobie 16, the reef points are about as useable as the boom vang. -They are good conversation pieces, while drinking beer.


Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275099
08/31/14 02:53 AM
08/31/14 02:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Sure, when I'm windsurfing at sea above 30 kts, I've met the last 10 years more and more sailing yachts. Reefed mainsails, stormjibs, etc.
Look at the round the world races.The skippers are looking and waiting for stormy winds!

On a windsurfboard it's easy: you just have to pick the right sailsize. Down to 3.2/3.5 in the second half of 40+ kts. So, why shouldn't you do that on a beachcat???


I can only speak for sailing on the North Sea and there the limiting factor for 30+ is normally not the wind but the waves and the break!

With a beachcat you cannot pass a break anymore with breaking waves above 3 m. and a relative distance of less then 10 m.
On my sailing spot you have very shallow waters and even a few miles outside, the waves can still break in high winds.

That's the disadvantage of a sand-shore break versus a reef-break.

Last: when the wind is reaching 30+,the cat is often becoming very awkward to control on the beach. It starts to bounch, sailing on the sand, sometimes capsizing on shore. The sails are shaking and jerking, etc.

I have at least two old mainsails, but I never felt the urge of downsizing them to stormsails.
But I certainly would have, if my sailing spots where inshore water.



Last edited by northsea junkie; 08/31/14 12:38 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275102
08/31/14 08:48 AM
08/31/14 08:48 AM
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brucat Offline
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Back in the day, did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail?

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: brucat] #275103
08/31/14 09:57 AM
08/31/14 09:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Back in the day, did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail?

Mike

No.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: mbounds] #275104
08/31/14 10:29 AM
08/31/14 10:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
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Did anyone ever win a "minor" Hobie race with a reefed sail?



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275105
08/31/14 11:09 AM
08/31/14 11:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peterson
Did anyone ever win a "minor" Hobie race with a reefed sail?


While a reefed sail may give you an advantage upwind, it is almost always a detriment downwind. In a race where there is a combination of both, the result is almost always a draw.

That's one of the reasons that Hobie Cat eliminated the reef points on North American boats when they introduced the Comptip 30 years ago.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275106
08/31/14 11:33 AM
08/31/14 11:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
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jollyrodgers Offline
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J.P.,
Since you are still thinking about this, i have a couple more pieces of info since i have reefed many H16s.
I can't remember what the manual says so i am wondering why you need 2 booms. The gooseneck shackle should attach to the new tack (forward reef point), The outhaul attaches to the new clew, but you should also tie a short line thru the clew around the boom to handle the mainsheet pressure. It becomes a loose footed sail. The other grommets are there to keep the excess sail from flapping around only.
Reefing a H16 is meant to be done on the beach.
A H14 sail is almost the same size as a reefed 16 sail and we used to just do that at the rental.
There was a heat at the H16 worlds in Corpus Christi in the 70s where a team reefed and won a heat. Hobie Sr. told me it was the only major 16 heat ever won while reefed. i wasn't there but have heard it was one rough event.
Most small boat sailors just figure out ways of dealing with the extra power of high wind, or they have a wind limit. As stated above the luff curve of the reefed sail doesn't match the new mast curve so sail shape suffers.
One thing to do is roll up the jib if you have like a TheMightyHobie18, or bring 3 people.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275109
08/31/14 01:09 PM
08/31/14 01:09 PM
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brucat Offline
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Thanks guys. By "race" I did indeed mean a single race/heat, not a regatta. It's been so long since that was an option, I'm sort of surprised anyone remembers, although I suppose if you lost to a reefed sail, that's something you'd never forget!

I wonder why they invested the money to include the option in the first place?

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 08/31/14 01:12 PM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275122
09/01/14 05:51 AM
09/01/14 05:51 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Northsea.junkie:

when you select the sail of today for the windsurfer, you probably have several sails and mast combos. At least I did when I windsurfed to flatten the sail and make the top twist off in the gusts. Will get kind of expensive and cumbersome to have several mast/sail combos on a cat wink


I have learnt to live with the fact that some days are windsurfer days, others are for beachcat sailing. Some days are even best spent in front of the fireplace with chocklate and a book. Yesterday was the perfect day to go kayaking as the sun was blazing and no wind whatsoever.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #275123
09/01/14 08:45 AM
09/01/14 08:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Northsea.junkie:

when you select the sail of today for the windsurfer, you probably have several sails and mast combos. At least I did when I windsurfed to flatten the sail and make the top twist off in the gusts. Will get kind of expensive and cumbersome to have several mast/sail combos on a cat wink


I have learnt to live with the fact that some days are windsurfer days, others are for beachcat sailing. Some days are even best spent in front of the fireplace with chocklate and a book. Yesterday was the perfect day to go kayaking as the sun was blazing and no wind whatsoever.


You also don't quite have the ability to actively tune a sail while underway on a windsurfer like you do on a beach cat. This is another reason that the windsurfers carry different sail and mast combos.


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #275124
09/01/14 09:54 AM
09/01/14 09:54 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Okay, what I ment to say was that for me, at sea with on-shore or cross-onshore winds above +30kts, catsailing is almost impossible.
But on inshore water (or off-shore wind at sea) there should be possibilities to go further then 30 kts.

Because, comparing to windsurf sailing, the windspan of a catsail is much larger. I mean, I can use my one catsail from 10 kts to 30 kts.
For that same range there are at least 4 or 5 surfsails.

So, you possibly could use in catsailing just one smaller sail (like in the old days of windsurfing with a 4.7). And that sail you hoist up on the beach when needed. And it has of course the right luffcurve for your mast. Simply a sailchange onshore.

On a windy day you have this extra smaller sail with you in the car or even on your tramp. And we catsailors can always go ashore very easy!

Writing this down, I realise that I could do this for myself also. A smaller sail which I will hoist at say +25 kts., or even less if the wind is going to increase.

Thanks guys

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/01/14 12:34 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
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