Announcements
New Discussions
Downhaul under spinnaker
by CapriSun. 11/12/20 09:41 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275126
09/01/14 01:09 PM
09/01/14 01:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
30kts is a fukton of wind. Maybe for someone who is paid to sail it's a worthwhile endeavor. For me it means breaking stuff, capsizing multiple times in a short amount of time, and questioning why I'm out there. If I'm not having fun, which to me survival mode isn't, there's no reason to be out there.


I'm boatless.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275128
09/01/14 05:00 PM
09/01/14 05:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
When it's blowing above about 20kts. here on my lake, I'll put my Hobie 14 sail on my Prindle 18. The mast has a halyard cleat at the base, so I tie off the halyard there, the top of the sail is about 3' short of the mast head/hook. I can still downhaul it pretty flat. I also have a rolling jib on the Prindle 18, so I can use it downwind, and roll it up for upwind, if it's too windy. I'm almost always sailing it solo, so that's nice to have. Works great up to about 30kts. but that's on a flat water inland lake.

I wouldn't want to be out in the big ocean on a small cat in 30kts, even with a reefed sail, due to the wave action. Going downwind in those will flip you without any sail up at all!

I agree with Karl's sentiments above.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275129
09/01/14 06:34 PM
09/01/14 06:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,047
Sebring, Florida.
What is the upper wind limit for the Olympic classes in an Olympic regatta? I think they have one, right? Is it about 25, or less?

And what about the A cats?

Even the huge AC72's had an upper wind limit, I guess that's why we don't really need reefing at most regattas?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275131
09/01/14 10:14 PM
09/01/14 10:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
addict
Jeff Peterson  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
But Karl,

That is the point. When Dave Dahl, the ever-wrong weatherman predicts 5 to 15, and we actually get 15 to 25 with peak gusts of 30, is there a way to sail and still have fun?

I just HATE IT when you put up the sails and within 30 minutes, the gusts keep building to the point you just want to get back to shore safely and call it a day.

So far nobody's experience seems to support reefing as the answer. I didn't think of trying a H14 sail, but wouldn't it be a wonderful coincidence if the H14 sail size matched perfectly with the reefing slug on the H16 halyard ? Does it? Any two-boat owner out there willing to give it a try?



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jollyrodgers] #275132
09/01/14 10:28 PM
09/01/14 10:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
addict
Jeff Peterson  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jolly Roger,

The manual said nothing about a second boom, that was my thinking. I figured that if a got a 2nd beat-up sail just for reefing, I could tie it to the extra boom once, then it would be ready for a quick change.



Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275133
09/01/14 11:28 PM
09/01/14 11:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
It helps to be young for the 30knt pus stuff, and the water sort of flat. Other wise a 4.2-4.0 on a wave board would be the ticket even in big surf.
or some sort of ocean going boat double reefed with a 90 percent jib or something like that.
A 14 main is just a hair shorter than a reefed 16 main. It worked for us since you can still downhaul it ok. I can't imagine that the sizes have changed since the 80's when we used to rig one of the 16s with the 14 sail.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275136
09/02/14 06:29 AM
09/02/14 06:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
We're all just getting soft. There are places in the world where the wind blows over 25 just about every day, and people sail cats. They tend to do well at Worlds.

I used to enjoy heavy air on my H16, then got to the point that I wouldn't rig the boat if it was blowing 20 in the morning. I still love big air on the Wave, though.

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: brucat] #275139
09/02/14 08:28 AM
09/02/14 08:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Many moons ago I think Randy Smyth won a race or two at Tradewinds using his 18HT with a reefed mainsail.

I believe that was shortly before he ripped the entire transom off one hull. He may have won that race, too smile (Starting to sound like Chuck Norris or Kenny Pierce sayings...)

If memory serves it was blowing steady high 20's with gusts into mid 30's (mph). Blackwater sound was relatively protected, but still had steep chop.

And it was about 40F that day... in Key Largo...


Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: brucat] #275146
09/02/14 11:10 AM
09/02/14 11:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by brucat
Thanks guys. By "race" I did indeed mean a single race/heat, not a regatta. It's been so long since that was an option, I'm sort of surprised anyone remembers, although I suppose if you lost to a reefed sail, that's something you'd never forget!

I wonder why they invested the money to include the option in the first place?

Mike


Could be that not everyone that bought one raced. Hobie also offered a roller furling jib for the 16. Racing is not the only reason to own a boat.


Have Fun
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: catman] #275147
09/02/14 11:15 AM
09/02/14 11:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by catman
Racing is not the only reason to own a boat.


Gasp! Perish the thought smile

By the way, Jake, I may have found a new path around Cape Romano for your EC next year. Let me see if I can download the track from Saturday. It's skinny, but I never touched with the board 1/2 way down (maybe 3' draft?)

Would save you from going all the way out to the light before cutting east.

of course, a good storm will move all that sand anyway...


Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: catman] #275149
09/02/14 12:54 PM
09/02/14 12:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by brucat
Thanks guys. By "race" I did indeed mean a single race/heat, not a regatta. It's been so long since that was an option, I'm sort of surprised anyone remembers, although I suppose if you lost to a reefed sail, that's something you'd never forget!

I wonder why they invested the money to include the option in the first place?

Mike


Could be that not everyone that bought one raced. Hobie also offered a roller furling jib for the 16. Racing is not the only reason to own a boat.


Good point. I forgot...

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: mbounds] #275154
09/03/14 09:56 AM
09/03/14 09:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
B
Bille Offline
member
Bille  Offline
member
B

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
Back in the day, did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail?

Mike

No.


HA Ha Ha !!!
The last Hobie race i witnessed at Lake Mohave ; maybe 50+
cats and it was blowing 30+ on the water ...

Almost Everyone sat on shore with there cats rigged , less
there sails, and on there beach-wheels.

YEP -- they all watched me & a buddy of mine, while we were on our kite boards.
Only person out with a cat, was a rather
talented Dude, with his Daughter on a Hobie-18 ; they were
having an Absolute BLAST !!!

After witnessing that ; I Never had any desire to go
racing with the Hobie crowd (.)

SO to answer your question : " did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail"?

That would be probably NO, because the field would be Too
scared to go sailing in a 30+ ; so they would Call the race!
HAHA !!!

====================================================

On our Hobie 20 , we made an extension for the halyard, at
the top of the reefed Main ; that way we could still use the
down-hull.The problem with that system was that it took
too long to reef the sail in the middle of the lake.

I think a rolling boom is a better way to go ; much Faster
way to reduce sail aria when Ya see the wind-lines marching
towards you ? In higher winds ; i kinda Want the sail to
have less camber anyway.

Getting rid of the jib is Fast ; just as fast as deploying
it, with a furling mechanism !

One other thing :
In High winds, the prudent skipper,will NOT be Maxing out his
boat, (it's the entire reason to get rid of sail aria) in
the first place ; so flipping your cat is actually Harder
with the lowered moment of Power, on your mast.

Bille


Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #275155
09/03/14 10:24 AM
09/03/14 10:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Bille

HA Ha Ha !!!
The last Hobie race i witnessed at Lake Mohave ; maybe 50+
cats and it was blowing 30+ on the water ...

Almost Everyone sat on shore with there cats rigged , less
there sails, and on there beach-wheels.

YEP -- they all watched me & a buddy of mine, while we were on our kite boards.
Only person out with a cat, was a rather
talented Dude, with his Daughter on a Hobie-18 ; they were
having an Absolute BLAST !!!

I was there, too. That would have been Rex Mitchell - and he admitted afterward it was one of the stupidest things he had ever done. Nearly broke his boat - and his daughter.

Originally Posted by Bille
After witnessing that ; I Never had any desire to go
racing with the Hobie crowd (.)

SO to answer your question : " did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail"?

That would be probably NO, because the field would be Too
scared to go sailing in a 30+ ; so they would Call the race!
HAHA !!!

We weren't scared - neither the Hobie 18s nor the Hobie 17s that were there have any provision for reefing. We had just finished a day of five races in 20+ kts and we were beat. There were multiple collisions in the 18s and one crew had to be evacuated to Las Vegas for a concussion.
[Linked Image]
Personally, I needed to win four races in order to get from 2nd to 1st in the 17s that last day, and I really couldn't see myself (or my boat) making it through 4 races in 30+ kt winds (with gusts into the 40s). The race committee didn't think they would survive either, so they called it off.

This isn't a game of "who's got the biggest d**k" - it's supposed to be fun - and it's not fun over 25 kts steady. You can do your little superiority dance all you want, but I got my boat back in one piece from that event, and I couldn't care less what you were doing that day. I was having more fun on shore than I would have on the water, and that's what matters to me.

Attached Files
Last edited by mbounds; 09/03/14 10:48 AM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #275156
09/03/14 10:46 AM
09/03/14 10:46 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Bille
Getting rid of the jib is Fast ; just as fast as deploying it, with a furling mechanism !


my furler is not easy to use in heavy air and more often than not does not furl the sail well ( creates a terrible hourglass shape that is flogging like crazy)

One persons fun is another persons nightmare.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #275157
09/03/14 11:20 AM
09/03/14 11:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 522
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 522
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by MN3


One persons fun is another persons nightmare.


Sailing above 25 kts steady is definitly fun and that has nothing to do with your Dxxx size! Mine is normal by the way.

Being a windsurfer of the first hour, I feel very at-home if the wind is really blowing and there are only a few guys left.
Adapting your sail to a very small and handy size and still feeling this enormous power in your sail, gives a thrilling sensation during sailing.

You see that same feeling reviving again in the kite scene. They go with 5 meter kites. That look like child kites, tiny and fragile.
And they all return from the water with a very big smile on their face!!!!!


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275158
09/03/14 11:24 AM
09/03/14 11:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
PU used to run NAs with winds into the high 20s / low 30s. We were all younger and crazier then, and would go out as long as the RC was willing to run races.

Even on H16s, on Rehoboth Bay (Dewey Beach, DE) with its flat water, 1/3 of the fleet was ashore by the end of the first race. By the time the later races were running, only about 1/3 of the fleet was still racing. At one start, 1/3 of the boats on the water flipped at the start. Those ashore were there because they were either smart, tired, capsized and/or had broken boats. We had less wind, but big waves last year in Galveston, and lots of carnage.

When cats collide at "survival" speed on the water, bad things happen, and many times, the hulls aren't repairable. To say nothing of the people.

Again, I think there is some aspect of it that we're getting older, but we also don't get these conditions often enough to train for it. Either way, the result is that it's unsafe and not fun for most of the fleet in those conditions.

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275159
09/03/14 11:26 AM
09/03/14 11:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
old hand
tshan  Offline
old hand
T

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
Quite a few years back, one day of Juana's saw very few boats sail. I mostly remember H17s sailing (maybe Kevin Smith, Brian Lambert and some others), but not many. Pretty much a straight shot off the beach through the starting line, down to Pensacola and back through the finish line and straight to the beach. No one left the beach until the start gun went off.


Tom
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: mbounds] #275160
09/03/14 12:48 PM
09/03/14 12:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
B
Bille Offline
member
Bille  Offline
member
B

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by mbounds

...


There were multiple collisions in the 18s and one crew had to be evacuated to Las Vegas for a concussion.
...

The race committee didn't think they would survive either, so they called it off.
...

This isn't a game of "who's got the biggest d**k" - it's supposed to be fun -
...


I'll start with the LAST part :

** This is a Thread about Reefing a catamaran ; so did it EVER
even cross your mind , that maybe, just Maybe, Ya would
have had FUN, if you had reefed the sails on your cat, to
match the power of the wind that day ????

I've bin out at Mohave on the Hobie-20, in winds in excess of
35 mph ; and i am NOT anywhere NEAR as good a sailor as You.

Given the chance to do it over ; i'd make the main-sail reefable
to the size of a Hobie 14, (instead of the 16 we could reduce to).

Also , I would go with a smaller jib.



A reefable sail is WAY safer to to be out on a lake with ;
when the lake is ((KNOWN)) to fluctuate in wind-speed from
15-mph to as much as 35-mph in the same afternoon.

The concussion you mentioned ; that Probably wouldn't have
happened if the sails weren't over-powered at the time of the
incident.
WERE THEY WEARING HELMETS AT THE TIME ?

Originally Posted by MN3

...

my furler is not easy to use in heavy air and more often than not does not furl the sail well ( creates a terrible hourglass shape that is flogging like crazy)

One persons fun is another persons nightmare.


Then FIX it , and it Will be Fun !

What can i say ; go in Big-Wind, with crappy equipment, (what do Ya expect) ?
Our furler worked just Fine !!

We Never flipped that Hobie-20 in big wind ; only mistake
we made was using an Old sail to sew reefing points in.
We blew that sail up ; had to return from 9-mile with
our jib.

Bille

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275161
09/03/14 12:57 PM
09/03/14 12:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
B
Bille Offline
member
Bille  Offline
member
B

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Originally Posted by MN3


One persons fun is another persons nightmare.


Sailing above 25 kts steady is definitly fun and that has nothing to do with your Dxxx size! Mine is normal by the way.
...


Mine are Also normal size. These guys just don't get it ; that
using the correct equipment to do a job, (is Paramount) !!!

Wish you didn't live so far away, Mr northsea junkie . (sigh)

Bille

Last edited by Bille; 09/03/14 12:58 PM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #275162
09/03/14 01:12 PM
09/03/14 01:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
define "normal"

Trident shape?


Jay

Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 26 guests, and 302 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Qddriver, jamieoklahoma, CameronB, stampdk, lwalling
8077 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Timbo 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,383
Posts267,009
Members8,077
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1