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Re: Reefer Madness [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275163
09/03/14 02:54 PM
09/03/14 02:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
define "normal"

Trident shape?


Ya got me ; i keep forgetting that i lost both legs in a hang gliding crash.

How about if i just say that it is Safer to have the ability
to reef your sails ; if a guy actually does need it from time
to time ?

Bille

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #275164
09/03/14 03:35 PM
09/03/14 03:35 PM

M
MN3
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MN3
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M



Originally Posted by Bille

Originally Posted by MN3

my furler is not easy to use in heavy air and more often than not does not furl the sail well ( creates a terrible hourglass shape that is flogging like crazy)

One persons fun is another persons nightmare.


Then FIX it , and it Will be Fun !

What can i say ; go in Big-Wind, with crappy equipment, (what do Ya expect) ?



I use new harken furlers (top and bottom) with the highload turlon bearings. - nothing to fix, not crap equipment

I sail solo 80% of the time so having the luxury of holding the tiller and trying to furl a jib on the fly in 30knots is not just a case of "fix it"

I have sailed in over 40. not my idea of fun. Even over 20 is more than i prefer (but get caught in 25's several times a year).

I think knowing how to depower and get back to the beach safe is much more "fun" than being out in heavy air, getting a face full of water and increasing my risk of breaking a boat or person.

I have jumped on many other boats in high wind, but i find that less and less appealing as i get older.


Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275165
09/03/14 03:40 PM
09/03/14 03:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
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Have you seen this video before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtWoxDXUmko
the title says they are sailing in 60 knts., but it looks about like a strong day at Dougs beach in the Gorge. I used a 3.5meter sail there once and it was about right.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #275166
09/04/14 02:40 AM
09/04/14 02:40 AM
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Posts: 522
Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3

I sail solo 80% of the time so having the luxury of holding the tiller and trying to furl a jib on the fly in 30knots is not just a case of "fix it"



Well, you can always heave-to!

A sailing manouevre which I didn't hear mentioning so far in this discussion. Very normal in heavy weather yachtsailing.

Try next time in 25+ kts after your first run outside, to jibe. Because at that time your are anyway full of adrenaline and all your muscles are tensioned and you are at the top of your nerves. So a jibe in heavy wind seems not too much to add to all your misery at that moment. Take your time when running the cat full ahead of the wind. Take care of the boom and try to slow down the travellercar. Turn into the wind.

And then...........do nothing. Leave the jib on the wrong side and let the main completely free open, let the tiller go. You will be amazed with the repose and the silentness of that situation. You are in heavy wind but everything is quiet; cat is moving slowly windwards. All is in control. Sails are not slapping. You can stand up, walk over your tramp, do a little dance, sew the jib if you want. And rest!

Then start thinking of how to spill a little more wind when sailing again. On your way back from the run; if you are really out of control, let the jib simply on the wrong side. By this little trick you can manage another 10 kts extra.



ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275167
09/04/14 06:59 AM
09/04/14 06:59 AM

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MN3
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Well, you can always heave-to!

IF I wanted to sail in heavy air I would heave-to if/as needed, but since i prefer not to sail in heavy air.... and IF i sailed in heavy air, i wouldn't have a jib out

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275168
09/04/14 09:34 AM
09/04/14 09:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Leave the jib on the wrong side and let the main completely free open, let the tiller go. You will be amazed with the repose and the silentness of that situation. You are in heavy wind but everything is quiet; cat is moving slowly windwards. All is in control. Sails are not slapping. You can stand up, walk over your tramp, do a little dance, sew the jib if you want. And rest!

Try that in a Hobie 16 in anything over 20 kts and let me know how it works for you. Or a boat with a self-tacking jib (F18) that can't be weather sheeted.

Yeah, it works great for monohulls that don't have fully-battened sails. Catamarans, not so much.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: mbounds] #275169
09/04/14 09:48 AM
09/04/14 09:48 AM
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I've sailed on H16's, but never done this particular heaving to. Nor with a self tacking jib (ofcourse).

Works fine for my cat and for that reason on any Prindle. Guess that same implies for Nacra's.

Curious though if it works for other members on their cats. I always thought this would work for anybody.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275170
09/04/14 10:22 AM
09/04/14 10:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 431
Netherlands
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Northsea, Heaving to didn't quite work on my Nacra 5.2 out of the box. It would fall off, pick up speed, head up, tack and fall off, repeatedly.

I added a shock-cord with two plastic hooks along the back beam (tramp lacing actually). I use the hook to stabilize the rudders gently against the transoms. Gives me time to eat, drink and think (if applicable ;-)
My impression is that the boat sort of slowly [moves] sideways doing this "crabbing".

Last edited by DennisMe; 09/04/14 10:23 AM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: DennisMe] #275171
09/04/14 10:44 AM
09/04/14 10:44 AM
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Dennis, heaving to is by nature a balanced situation for your cat. So yes, sometimes you have to play a little with the main and/or the rudders (and fix them) to arrive to that balance.

Perhaps I'm very lucky to have made a cat which is very balanced by itself.

By the way the fully battening of a catsail is in my opinion not an issue in heaving-to.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/04/14 12:03 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: DennisMe] #275173
09/04/14 07:58 PM
09/04/14 07:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
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Originally Posted by DennisMe
Northsea, Heaving to didn't quite work on my Nacra 5.2 out of the box. It would fall off, pick up speed, head up, tack and fall off, repeatedly.


Glad to hear that. I always had trouble getting my 5.2 to heave to but I just thought it was me not getting things balanced. It worked well on my old Apollo 16 (monohull dingy).


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #275174
09/05/14 06:22 AM
09/05/14 06:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3

...

I use new harken furlers (top and bottom) with the highload turlon bearings. - nothing to fix, not crap equipment

I sail solo 80% of the time so having the luxury of holding the tiller and trying to furl a jib on the fly in 30knots is not just a case of "fix it"

I have sailed in over 40. not my idea of fun. Even over 20 is more than i prefer (but get caught in 25's several times a year).
...




OK -- then you need to get the pressure off your sails.

Bring her into Irons ; then toss the sea-anchor, and lift
your rudders so she doesn't turn while going backwards.

You will have a much easier time of it now.

For you being caught in a 25 , "several times a year" as you
say, ; i would Drop the Main completely, and sail your joy
back to safe harbor , with just the jib.

Have you ever sailed with just your jib ? You should learn
how easy it is in sub-20 some day ; it's quite pleasant !!
You'll need a bit of energy ; or Ya get bored rather Easy .

The boat will be unbalanced, and need Lots of rudder ; but
since there are Way fewer blocks on the jib sheet, she reacts
a LOT faster when Ya go to depower,
(faster than sheeting out the Main) !!

I'm betting that you will NOT be in a great hurry to return
to shore ; once Ya find out just How easy it is to sail with
just your jib ? !!

I wouldn't sail Mohave , without a Good plan to deal with the
15 to 30-mph winds that are normal on that lake. We get a nice 15
to start ; then it's ON. It will fluctuate like that,as many
as 3 to 5 times a day.


Bille

BTW
This is all stuff i taught on 21 ft columbia sailboats , at
the Harry Lundeberg school of seamanship, in Piney point Md ,in the early 70's.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #275175
09/05/14 07:44 AM
09/05/14 07:44 AM

M
MN3
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MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Bille
OK -- then you need to get the pressure off your sails.

Or just don't go out in heavy air

Quote
For you being caught in a 25 , "several times a year" as you
say, ; i would Drop the Main completely, and sail your joy back to safe harbor , with just the jib.

So your suggesting when a storm pops up i try and drop and secure my main on my catamaran while on the fly? I don't think that is the answer for me. I can sail my cat in 25 - 30 without doing that.

Quote
Have you ever sailed with just your jib ?

Yes

Quote
I wouldn't sail Mohave , without a Good plan to deal with the
15 to 30-mph winds that are normal on that lake. We get a nice 15
to start ; then it's ON. It will fluctuate like that,as many
as 3 to 5 times a day.


Here in the Central Fl / Gulf of Mexico we get all ranges of weather. It's typical for the summer days to start out light, build all day and then have late afternoon thunderstorms (although this year has been atypical) - we have plans/options.

You seem to be trying very hard to convince me that sailing in heavy air is the most fun and I should be doing it. I am spoiled and get to sail year round, 3 days a week .... I have learned what i find fun and what i don't.... and sailing in heavy air / rough seas is not fun to me....

YMMV

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #275176
09/05/14 08:05 AM
09/05/14 08:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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I agree that heavy air sailing isn't in my definition of "fun" (Karl's comments regarding damage, fatigue, etc), and I am quite spoiled that I can pretty much pick any weekend to sail here so if the forecast is anything less than ideal I can forego the day's sailing plan.

BUT, heavy air sailing is something to be familiar with, as I I'm certain most folks have been caught out on the water when things didn't turn out as planned (too long sailing before weather moves in, pop-up storms, etc).

Having options (like reefing, jib-only sailing, etc) and knowing how/when to use them greatly increases a sailor's overall safety.

Perhaps that could be considered "enjoying" since I'd be somewhat competent in those "less than ideal" conditions, and can set the boat up to be comfortable/seakindly?

Racing is not usually "survival sailing", but getting back to the beach can be.

Having a fast boat also allows you to sail around/outrun certain conditions (like pop-up storm) which can be seen as increasing safety, too.


Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: waterbug_wpb] #275178
09/05/14 09:43 AM
09/05/14 09:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 522
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I agree that heavy air sailing isn't in my definition of "fun" (Karl's comments regarding damage, fatigue, etc), and I am quite spoiled that I can pretty much pick any weekend to sail here so if the forecast is anything less than ideal I can forego the day's sailing plan.

BUT, heavy air sailing is something to be familiar with, as I I'm certain most folks have been caught out on the water when things didn't turn out as planned (too long sailing before weather moves in, pop-up storms, etc).

Having options (like reefing, jib-only sailing, etc) and knowing how/when to use them greatly increases a sailor's overall safety.



Well, not having "fun", feeling too spoiled for heavy weather, exaggerating the risks, raising the old age. I don't buy it guys.

It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

This is exactly the reason why I presented in this thread a learning scenario with a heavy weather jibe ending in a heave to condition.
Do it and you will feel more secure because you learned to do the impossible followed by the rewarding no-fear situation of the heave-to.




ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275179
09/05/14 09:51 AM
09/05/14 09:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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I clicked on this thread, because I'm a 'reefer'- it's not what you think.

It's this kind of reef- in my family room

[Linked Image]

Now, back to 'sail reefing'


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275182
09/05/14 10:25 AM
09/05/14 10:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Nice tank!

I've been out in nuclear stuff (30+ with huge ocean waves), and couldn't get my H16 to tack without wanting to go over backwards. So, I prefer to gybe in those conditions. We lie on the tramp with our heads all the way down, and steer through it as slowly as possible. I'm sometimes amazed that the rig is still vertical after that...

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275183
09/05/14 10:26 AM
09/05/14 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

Certainly. And having the boat fitted with "options" (reefing, storm sail, etc) is part of that security.

Still not sure on the "fun" part... Maybe telling the story of how you got through the nuclear conditions is "fun".

It also could be that "heavy air" (over 30 kts) in this area is accompanied by things I don't consider particularly "fun":
- hail
- cold temperatures
- mega-lightning. I think Florida kills more people with lightning than anywhere else?

That last one is key for me personally. When it starts to feel like you're at a Rave party because of all the flashing, and you're sitting next to a 10 meter aluminum stick in the middle of a large body of water, it's hard to feel the "fun".


Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 09/05/14 10:30 AM.

Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275184
09/05/14 11:19 AM
09/05/14 11:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
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I think that if it were blowing a nice steady 35 knots in one direction we could all adapt and have a fun fast sail. It's the lulls and gusts along with changing direction that makes most heavy air sailing no fun around here.

That a good video: The sharper the blast, the quicker it'll pass.
I've seen boats destroyed tied down on the beach with bare poles in those conditions. There is no way I would have survived a micro-burst like that out on the water.


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275185
09/05/14 11:20 AM
09/05/14 11:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Sailing jib only on the i20 or f18 wasn't much fun for me.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275186
09/05/14 12:37 PM
09/05/14 12:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
I've done jib only on the Viper as well. Lost one of the diamond wires and dropped the main to save the mast. Doesn't go to weather very well.


I'm boatless.
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