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by CapriSun. 04/22/21 09:01 AM
Hobie 16 hull bow shroud anchor damage
by Kc2canada. 04/07/21 11:08 PM
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Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275187
09/05/14 12:54 PM
09/05/14 12:54 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I've done jib only on the Viper as well. Lost one of the diamond wires and dropped the main to save the mast. Doesn't go to weather very well.


You should try that with a set of beach wheels tied under the hulls.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #275188
09/05/14 01:13 PM
09/05/14 01:13 PM

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MN3
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wheels help it point better? (jk)

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I've done jib only on the Viper as well. Lost one of the diamond wires and dropped the main to save the mast. Doesn't go to weather very well.


You should try that with a set of beach wheels tied under the hulls.

Last edited by MN3; 09/05/14 01:18 PM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #275189
09/05/14 05:11 PM
09/05/14 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MN3
wheels help it point better? (jk)

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I've done jib only on the Viper as well. Lost one of the diamond wires and dropped the main to save the mast. Doesn't go to weather very well.


You should try that with a set of beach wheels tied under the hulls.


No, they do not.


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #275194
09/06/14 02:11 PM
09/06/14 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by MN3
wheels help it point better? (jk)


You should try that with a set of beach wheels tied under the hulls.


No, they do not. [/quote]

Don't ask you how you know that, right smile


Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275198
09/06/14 09:24 PM
09/06/14 09:24 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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I've thought that if caught out in a big FL thunder/lightning storm, I'd drop the main and turtle the boat on purpose, then float on my back between the hulls.

Then after the storm passes, try to figure out how to right the boat...

Anyone got a good technique for righting a turtled cat? (I'm thinking walk out on the bows and wait?)


Blade F16
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Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275199
09/06/14 11:04 PM
09/06/14 11:04 PM
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maui
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The thread title should be reefing madness since there was an anti weed psy-op movie all those years ago titled reefer madness.
i qualify as being anyone so here is a comment for Timbo;
It depends on the cat, but if it is small enough you just stand on the bottom of a hull and pull on the righting line with steady pressure until wind can get under the tramp. Pick the right hull to stand on so that the wind can get under the tramp and help you. Otherwise it could be the sterns that you would want to stand on to sink in to get the tramp exposed to the wind, lifting the bows, then rolling over on it's side. The front part of the boat is more buoyant on a lot of the cats so it may be easier to stand on a stern. Steady pressure on a righting line helps quite a bit no matter which way you are trying to pull the boat up.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jollyrodgers] #275201
09/07/14 03:15 AM
09/07/14 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Otherwise it could be the sterns that you would want to stand on to sink in to get the tramp exposed to the wind, lifting the bows, then rolling over on it's side. The front part of the boat is more buoyant on a lot of the cats so it may be easier to stand on a stern. Steady pressure on a righting line helps quite a bit no matter which way you are trying to pull the boat up.


+1,

I've learned in the years at least a dozen catsailor friends this procedure at sea. A little remark, pick always the off-wind hull to stand on. The sooner the wind will catch the windward hull and help you turning the whole thing on its side.
At sea this often places you also on the " down-wave" side. Then with a lot of luck the next big wave can even push the cat in one second completely up to horizontal!

With modern cats this whole procedure should be easier than in the old days. Standing on the upside sharp hull of a Prindle or a H14/16 is far from easy and you ended up trying to balance on the small flange-rims on the side of the hull. I've seen guys with totally grazed underlegs when they slipped off this rim.

P.S. When practising this, pick deep enough water!!!

Go as far astern as possible, if you are with two, clinch together.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/07/14 05:27 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275202
09/07/14 08:14 AM
09/07/14 08:14 AM
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On a H16, all you need to do is sit, not stand, on the leeward stern. This is the only way to do it in rough water. Any attempt to stand will result in getting wet and/ or hurt.

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275204
09/07/14 12:34 PM
09/07/14 12:34 PM
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Bille Offline
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I agree that heavy air sailing isn't in my definition of "fun" (Karl's comments regarding damage, fatigue, etc), and I am quite spoiled ...



Well, not having "fun", feeling too spoiled for heavy weather, exaggerating the risks, raising the old age. I don't buy it guys.

It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

This is exactly the reason why I presented in this thread a learning scenario with a heavy weather jibe ending in a heave to condition.
Do it and you will feel more secure because you learned to do the impossible followed by the rewarding no-fear situation of the heave-to.




Fun or NO fun heavy weather sailing is Definitely something
worth learning ; it could save your life one day !!

@ northsea junkie :
Try not to laugh at someone because they don't want to increase
the odds for being a Victim. Problem with some is that by NOT
learning to deal with the stronger stuff ; there actually placing
themselves at Greater risk !!

Originally Posted by MN3

...

You seem to be trying very hard to convince me that sailing in heavy air is the most fun and I should be doing it. I am spoiled and get to sail year round, 3 days a week .... I have learned what i find fun and what i don't.... and sailing in heavy air / rough seas is not fun to me....

YMMV


NO i am NOT !!!

* What i AM saying, is that knowing what to do in stronger wind
is a good back-up plan.

** And second ) 30+ wind on a (4 X 10-mile) lake, is a FAR cry
from what you get in the Central Fl / Gulf of Mexico. You
must think i'm Stupid , by trying to make a comparison ?
Your playing in open water, and I'm playing in a Pond with
a Lot of exits at my disposal !


Bille



Re: Reefer Madness [Re: mbounds] #275205
09/07/14 12:36 PM
09/07/14 12:36 PM
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The guys in that Hobie race
on Mohave a while back ; they ALL would have bin safer with
the ability to reef there sails , that week .

THIS IS THE "BEST POST EVER" ; with a dude complaining about a
bunch of Over Powered cat sailors in strong winds. He kinda
summed up my argument on WHY it's a good idea to Reef a sail :

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Bille

HA Ha Ha !!!
The last Hobie race i witnessed at Lake Mohave ; maybe 50+
cats and it was blowing 30+ on the water ...

Almost Everyone sat on shore with there cats rigged , less
there sails, and on there beach-wheels.

YEP -- they all watched me & a buddy of mine, while we were on our kite boards.
Only person out with a cat, was a rather
talented Dude, with his Daughter on a Hobie-18 ; they were
having an Absolute BLAST !!!

I was there, too. That would have been Rex Mitchell - and he admitted afterward it was one of the stupidest things he had ever done. Nearly broke his boat - and his daughter.

Originally Posted by Bille
After witnessing that ; I Never had any desire to go
racing with the Hobie crowd (.)

SO to answer your question : " did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail"?

That would be probably NO, because the field would be Too
scared to go sailing in a 30+ ; so they would Call the race!
HAHA !!!

We weren't scared - neither the Hobie 18s nor the Hobie 17s that were there have any provision for reefing. We had just finished a day of five races in 20+ kts and we were beat. There were multiple collisions in the 18s and one crew had to be evacuated to Las Vegas for a concussion.
[Linked Image]
Personally, I needed to win four races in order to get from 2nd to 1st in the 17s that last day, and I really couldn't see myself (or my boat) making it through 4 races in 30+ kt winds (with gusts into the 40s). The race committee didn't think they would survive either, so they called it off.

This isn't a game of "who's got the biggest d**k" - it's supposed to be fun - and it's not fun over 25 kts steady. You can do your little superiority dance all you want, but I got my boat back in one piece from that event, and I couldn't care less what you were doing that day. I was having more fun on shore than I would have on the water, and that's what matters to me.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: brucat] #275213
09/08/14 10:50 AM
09/08/14 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
On a H16, all you need to do is sit, not stand, on the leeward stern. This is the only way to do it in rough water. Any attempt to stand will result in getting wet and/ or hurt.

Mike


Mike, I didn't say it was that easy. Like everyhing mentioned in this thread, it needs practice.
Look below for two sitting sailors in turtle position:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

They have the uphaul-line over the wrong bow. It should be just over the middle from the front-beam.

But even then it can be a hell of a job. Look below 4 men on a lake, no wind, flat water:




They also didn't quite understand the trick of pushing only one hull down and let the cat fall on its side.

So, the idea of Timbo: pulling the cat in stormy conditions on purpose in capsize position with the risk of turtle needs a few requirements:
You have to be sure that in case of turtle you can help yourself and you have to be sure the mast is watertight.

Mind you, if you put a ball in the mast (may be only in rough conditions), you don't have all these problems. With a ball in the top you don't come so easy in a turtle position, but if you do, you don't have to do anything.
Cat will right itself to 90 degrees.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/08/14 11:03 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275214
09/08/14 10:57 AM
09/08/14 10:57 AM
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Naples, FL
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dang, Tim. If it's that bad and I know it's coming, I'll lower the mast entirely. Takes about 15 minutes, but again, if it's that bad there is no telling how fast I could really get that thing down...


Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #275215
09/08/14 11:01 AM
09/08/14 11:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Bille
What i AM saying, is that knowing what to do in stronger wind is a good back-up plan.


~ i agree

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275217
09/08/14 12:53 PM
09/08/14 12:53 PM
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Forcing a boat to turtle when it's windier than hell is harder than you'd think. A few years ago I was caught in a storm where it was reported to be blowing 60mph, (I don't think it was over 40 where we were though), and I tried to turtle the boat to keep the sails from flogging and lower our profile because there was lightning about. I couldn't get it to go, but it was basically in position, so to speak, to be righted. We were drifting very quickly. I'm actually kinda surprised it didn't self right. I've had a H16 do that on me in big wind.


I'm boatless.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275218
09/08/14 03:09 PM
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Dive in the water and swimm to the top of the mast. Turn it with the cat completely leeward. Then push the masttop down under you, stand on it in the water. With a stormy wind drifting you leeward, the cat will push itself turtle.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275220
09/08/14 03:33 PM
09/08/14 03:33 PM
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As part of learning about my new boat, a Viper F16, and how it behaves in various configurations, I tried the "jib only" thing in light air this weekend. The lee helm was pretty much unmanageable and even a beam reach was barely doable. I had a similar experience when caught in a thunderstorm many years ago on an 18' P-Cat on Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR. I dropped the main to reduce sail, but then could make no headway to windward, and the lee helm was wicked. I ended up going with the wind and beaching on the side of the lake opposite of where I really wanted to be and waiting it out. Fortunately, it was a friendly sand beach and not a pile of big rocks. If you want to reduce sail heading downwind, jib-only is an option. Going to weather, forget it. I've also beached a Hobie 18 downwind (actually the beach I wanted to go to this time) with the main down and the jib furled. It was surprisingly fast in this configuration! I have no idea how strong the wind was, but it was way too much.

Anyway, good discussion. I agree that it's good to know what your options are when you get caught in more wind than you really want to be out in.

Last edited by jbecker; 09/08/14 04:25 PM.

Jeff
Tiger 849
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275221
09/08/14 03:40 PM
09/08/14 03:40 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Dive in the water and swimm to the top of the mast. Turn it with the cat completely leeward. Then push the masttop down under you, stand on it in the water. With a stormy wind drifting you leeward, the cat will push itself turtle.


Ok, well...with a boat on it's side in a ripping wind, there's no way you are swimming out to the end of the mast on purpose. I've been in situations where I was lucky to just be able to stay with the boat...even with a hand hold on trampoline lacing, the boat was moving so fast on it's side I couldn't climb aboard without help. This was in about 30+. There would be no way I could swim out to the end of the mast and certainly no way I could swim the boat into a mast-downwind orientation. Auto-righting was a definite possibility and we were rushing to try and get into a righting position quickly so we would be ready in any case.



Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275222
09/08/14 04:18 PM
09/08/14 04:18 PM
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Auto-righting is scary. I take that as a direct statement from the boat that she's had enough and wants me to take her to the beach immediately.

Mike

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #275224
09/08/14 08:28 PM
09/08/14 08:28 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Dive in the water and swimm to the top of the mast. Turn it with the cat completely leeward. Then push the masttop down under you, stand on it in the water. With a stormy wind drifting you leeward, the cat will push itself turtle.


Ok, well...with a boat on it's side in a ripping wind, there's no way you are swimming out to the end of the mast on purpose. I've been in situations where I was lucky to just be able to stay with the boat...even with a hand hold on trampoline lacing, the boat was moving so fast on it's side I couldn't climb aboard without help. This was in about 30+. There would be no way I could swim out to the end of the mast and certainly no way I could swim the boat into a mast-downwind orientation. Auto-righting was a definite possibility and we were rushing to try and get into a righting position quickly so we would be ready in any case.



Bingo. I ain't leaving my happy place on the low hull while its on its side for nothing. Sitting there sucks, swimming and watching your boat drift away sucks much more.


I'm boatless.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Karl_Brogger] #275231
09/09/14 02:42 AM
09/09/14 02:42 AM
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When I capsize, I'm used to dive and swim to the masttop. That's necessary because I have a net-tramp which catches no wind. So my capsized cat has no tendency to float with weight displacement to the correct uprighting position.
So I nearly always have to swim the mast to that position. And then I have to go back to my lower hull as quick as possible before it changes its position to the wind.

I do that always by using the shroud of the lower hull .Passing my hands quickly.(with gloves on!).


Ofcourse I wonder what I would do in the hypothetical situation (I was never there) that I wanted a cat to turtle because of frightening circumstances (Like approaching lightning with strokes nearby in the water, two times auto-uprighting immediately followed by flip to the other side, couldn't hold myself to the capsized cat, etc)

So, okay my proposal to swim dive in that situation was a bit the talk of a windsurfer who is used to lose his board/sail in high waves. But with my experience using the cat shroud, I would certainly use this to go to the masttop. But only if that seemed to be the best and absolute necessary solution for my emergency situation.

That would be (and should be) a hard decision.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/09/14 06:22 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
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