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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277334
01/28/15 09:50 AM
01/28/15 09:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
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Tony_F18 Offline
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They used a balloon during the F18 Worlds in Italy a few years ago.
It had a gopro hanging under the balloon which was about 20m in the air.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: mbounds] #277337
01/28/15 02:03 PM
01/28/15 02:03 PM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
I was sitting with a wind meter in my face all day on the pin, and it was steady high teens / low 20s with occasional gusts into the mid twenties.

That being said, 9+ hours in a 17' Boston Whaler, wrangling huge marks in that kind of breeze - I'm knackered. It's time for Advil and bed.


Even on a flat lake, a 17 foot Whaler is a tough place to be all day, especially if there's more than two people on it.

Matt: What marks (of the course) are you responsible for? Are you the pin (anchored boat)?

Mike

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277339
01/28/15 03:00 PM
01/28/15 03:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Can anything be done with the masts? Being one design, are they stuck a design that has a weak point? There was a picture I saw on Facebook of the broken masts in a pile, and it looks like they snapped more or less in the same spot.


I'm boatless.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277340
01/28/15 03:01 PM
01/28/15 03:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 381
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
enthusiast
rehmbo  Offline
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SE MI / NE IN
Let me guess - they broke at the joint mandated by the 2-piece mast requirement.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277341
01/28/15 03:07 PM
01/28/15 03:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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J

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Boston, Ma
Masts are not two piece, that requirement was dropped


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #277342
01/28/15 03:13 PM
01/28/15 03:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Can anything be done with the masts? Being one design, are they stuck a design that has a weak point? There was a picture I saw on Facebook of the broken masts in a pile, and it looks like they snapped more or less in the same spot.


Don't masts pretty much break in the same spot? I haven't seen a lot a variation in break position on any of the beachcat spin boats I've seen. Look at any spin boat going downwind, you can pretty much point at it and say... it's going to break right there.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: David Ingram] #277343
01/28/15 03:15 PM
01/28/15 03:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Can anything be done with the masts? Being one design, are they stuck a design that has a weak point? There was a picture I saw on Facebook of the broken masts in a pile, and it looks like they snapped more or less in the same spot.


Don't masts pretty much break in the same spot? I haven't seen a lot a variation in break position on any of the beachcat spin boats I've seen. Look at any spin boat going downwind, you can pretty much point at it and say... it's going to break right there.


That's true, just seems like a lot of carnage, especially for a carbon mast.


I'm boatless.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277346
01/28/15 04:20 PM
01/28/15 04:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Boston, Ma
Biscayne Bay is very shallow. I would bet that the vast majority of breakages are from sticking the mast into the bottom.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #277347
01/28/15 08:05 PM
01/28/15 08:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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catman  Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...

My take, $8000 masts. LOL

Jill's take.

World Cup update: By Jill. Well, the news is good and bad. Robbie and Brianna's regatta has ended early due to injuries but the good news is that they are trying to see if they can get out again before the end of the regatta. Brianna pulled a groin muscle yesterday.

I really think this class needs to think about a more manageable wind limit. The first day was not manageable by over half the fleet.

Injuries were numerous, 6 broken masts, spin poles, sails and the list went on.

I left here at 330 am to pick up a trailer of parts so people could sail the next day. For those of you who know Brian, he had left at 11pm to drive up and meet a trailer coming from Pensacola and planned to be in Miami at 730 am. All was going well until he blew his transmission at 3am....that is when I was rousted from a rather pleasant sleep, jumped in the truck and started driving North. Once I was on the road and awake.....and I do mean that in that order, I realized that I could not make a 9 hour round trip and be back in time to let people make the 1pm start so I made the all important call at 430 to bob and Cheryl Johnson. You know who your friends are when the just say yes before they even know! They woke up, jumped in their truck and started driving South, picked up the trailer from Brian and kept driving South until we intersected. By them getting the trailer an extra hour South, it saved me 2 hours and I was able to get back by 10am and met the frenzy of sailors in the parking lot. Thanks big time to Bob and Cheryl and to Brian who drove 7 hours for us, then sat on the side of the road Nd waited for his dad who we also woke up to come and pick up him and the truck.

I am kicking in 500 to help with his transmission. Brian helps everyone when he is at an event with us.....if anyone would like to help, it would be appreciated I am sure.

I heard that someone posted that winds were in the teens. I do not know what they where using to measure the wind with but anyone can look up and see it was not just in the teens. The wind was steady low to mid 20's with big gusts. If the race committee can not see that or judge by the amount of carnage, we have a problem!

Safety is a real concern. Robbie was separated from his boat for over 30 minutes before being picked up by a sailor. The boat with Brianna was over for about 20 minutes before someone got to her. Coaches are not allowed on the coarse, but the race committee does not seemed to be too concerned about boats over. How is a boat in the course and on its side with no safety boat response! Enrique was on the coach boat that day and had been helping another team. There must be a better answer. I have not seen as many injuries on a cats ever as we are seeing in this fleet. These concerns need to be addressed before someone dies again! A good ratio of safety boats to sailors are a must....that is not the case here.

The regatta logistics is a bit disappointing but kind of what was expected. Conditions in the boat park, although slightly better than last year is primitive. There are some portolets in the parking lot and a food truck that is here most of the time that has stuff for sale. There are a few big umbrellas in the boat park near the 49rs and some shade over at the rowing club but other than that, it seems pretty barron. There is a beach captain this year so at least there is someone here, but if there is any problems like on the first day, the poor guy is overwhelmed. It is really a shame and it does not make the U.S. Look very good at least as far as the Fx, 49r and N17 fleets are concerned. The one good thing over here is we have plenty of parking.

Fortunately the Marshacks were kind enough to loan us their RV again. Although we can not stay in the lot over night it is allowing us some convenience. We are also turning into the medical tent as people come in looking for some aide.

To add insult to injury, they have a 90 minute limit from the time the last boat finishes to file a protest. So first you have to sail in, which is significant. Then IF you have a car you have to drive in rush hour traffic, which is pretty slammed, then you have to find a parking spot which is next to impossible. They had agreed to let the sailors file electronically thru the beach captain, which solved a ton of problems but then they rescinded that decision.

The coaches are having to anchor their boats to the shore or tie them to a fence. U.S. Sailing put 3 moorings in the water but with no way to get in and out it is tough to use them.

The sailors are feeling like they are in a third world county. It is a bit embarrassing again, especially after the same venue was used last year. World Cup events are suppose to be on a professional level. This is our time to shine to the sailing world. I am afraid we are not shining at all.

I hope the organizers try to improve the conditions over here for next year. There are some pretty easy things that can be done.

- Space out the containers and tie a canvas between two containers and set up some tables and chairs so they have a place to sit and eat and relax....very little expense...and someplace to get out of the rain.

- have a couple of volunteers over here to help....very little expense.

- have some medical assistance here. ...very little expense

- have a trailer brought in with reasonable bathrooms and showers....minimal expense.

- have more wifi available...minimal expense

- have remote filing of forms

- have a more reasonable arrangement for coach boats.

All these things are minimal expense and would help to put in a better show to the world sailors.

End






























































Last edited by catman; 01/28/15 08:07 PM.

Have Fun
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: catman] #277349
01/28/15 08:55 PM
01/28/15 08:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
I'm a little surprised at the mast costs. I know the A-cat doesn't need to support the same kind of loads - but last I was involved with it, you could buy an A-cat tube for a little under $3000 (without hardware).


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: brucat] #277350
01/28/15 09:50 PM
01/28/15 09:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by mbounds
I was sitting with a wind meter in my face all day on the pin, and it was steady high teens / low 20s with occasional gusts into the mid twenties.

That being said, 9+ hours in a 17' Boston Whaler, wrangling huge marks in that kind of breeze - I'm knackered. It's time for Advil and bed.


Even on a flat lake, a 17 foot Whaler is a tough place to be all day, especially if there's more than two people on it.

Matt: What marks (of the course) are you responsible for? Are you the pin (anchored boat)?

Mike

I'm doing start pin (anchored boat), gate and finish mark. We start, blow up the finish pin (a 1.5 meter green mark), set the finish line, then tweak the gate, signal changes, then tie up to the finish mark to help record finishes. We barely have time to throw some food in out faces all day long. It's been exhausting work.

The gate marks are large:
[Linked Image]

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277351
01/28/15 09:51 PM
01/28/15 09:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 24
Fort Myers/Cape Coral, FL
coralreefer Offline
stranger
coralreefer  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 24
Fort Myers/Cape Coral, FL
There is a NOAA bouy on nearby Virginia Key and here were the observations recorded every 6 seconds. These are in mph. Seems pretty harry from 1-2pm and then also from 3-4:30.


Time Spd Gust
11:30 16.11 19.69
11:36 17.22 19.69
11:42 17.22 18.34
11:48 14.99 19.69
11:54 18.34 19.69
12:00 18.34 20.80
12:06 18.34 20.80
12:12 17.22 20.80
12:18 16.11 19.69
12:24 17.22 19.69
12:30 17.22 19.69
12:36 18.34 20.80
12:42 18.34 19.69
12:48 18.34 21.92
12:54 17.22 21.92
13:00 17.22 21.92
13:06 20.80 23.04
13:12 19.69 21.92
13:18 20.80 24.16
13:24 18.34 24.16
13:30 19.69 23.04
13:36 21.92 23.04
13:42 21.92 24.16
13:48 19.69 24.16
13:54 19.69 23.04
14:00 19.69 21.92
14:06 18.34 21.92
14:12 18.34 20.80
14:18 18.34 21.92
14:24 18.34 20.80
14:30 17.22 20.80
14:36 16.11 19.69
14:42 18.34 19.69
14:48 16.11 19.69
14:54 16.11 19.69
15:00 18.34 20.80
15:06 19.69 21.92
15:12 19.69 23.04
15:18 21.92 24.16
15:24 19.69 25.28
15:30 20.80 23.04
15:36 21.92 25.28
15:42 21.92 25.28
15:48 25.28 34.45
15:54 24.16 27.74
16:00 26.40 31.09
16:06 21.92 31.09
16:12 21.92 27.74
16:18 21.92 28.86
16:24 10.29 24.16
16:30 13.87 21.92
16:36 9 .17 21.92
16:42 8 .05 17.22
16:48 8 .05 14.99
16:54 8 .05 16.11
17:00 8 .05 14.99


2014 Hobie 16
1995 Hobie 16
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277353
01/28/15 11:59 PM
01/28/15 11:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Class has a 25 knot wind max.... So... IN THEORY.... the fleet should have been pointy end up and racing hard...

In practice... half the fleet was getting killed.... Now since this is as professional a fleet top to bottom that you will find... some might say this is a problem! Carnage well beyond bad luck and newbie racers.

Surviving the boat in 20 plus is a skill.... however... I thought the game was sailboat racing. (there are differences of opinion on this one tho)

Gee.... do you think ISAF should have allowed Nacra to fix the boat and put some t foil rudders on the thing when the boat was jumping out of the water all of the time..

An aftermarket t foil fix would have been a LOT cheaper then an 8K mast...

Perhaps they should not have allowed a half baked boat to get this far in the Olympic cycle.

It's all fun and games until somebody dies and then the coasties will get involved..

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/29/15 02:30 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: mbounds] #277355
01/29/15 01:18 AM
01/29/15 01:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by mbounds
It's been exhausting work.


you could be in the office...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: coralreefer] #277358
01/29/15 08:03 AM
01/29/15 08:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
The water can be a real washing machine in that specific area too - which is undoubtedly amplifying the non-pointyendup problems.


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277359
01/29/15 08:10 AM
01/29/15 08:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Race 9 - GO SANDRA!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277367
01/29/15 09:52 AM
01/29/15 09:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Regarding the medical staff on site,

My wife I'm sure would be willing to volunteer to be on site for the event. Plus we know the new incoming medical director of the Miami-Dade EMS and I'm sure he'd be more than willing to hear about the fact that there isn't adequate medical coverage at a world-class event like this. They mentioned that the University of Miami was supposed to be supporting the medical needs of the event but if they aren't there, thats a huge liability issue and something needs to happen.

Kate just said she can fly in if need be.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #277368
01/29/15 11:46 AM
01/29/15 11:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
I like Jill's suggestions. The real question would be "to whom should they be addressed?" as well as "how can we get those things done?"


Jay

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277369
01/29/15 02:04 PM
01/29/15 02:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

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Posts: 3,969
Thanks for the pic and update Matt. Are you not using a hippety-hop to retrieve the ground tackle? Those marks are big for the boat, but not huge. How deep is the water there?

Regarding safety/medical, this is an ISAF event, and Matt is a NRO with decades of cat sailing experience. By the sounds of it, they're short on assets, and Matt is living that every day. He's possibly in the best position to enact future changes. But if there's something we can do from the US Sailing Multihull Racing Committee side, let me know. Safety is one of our mandates.

Of course, isn't this the event that infamously shorted PU many years ago? Time to crack open the lessons learned reports?

Mike

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: brucat] #277370
01/29/15 04:14 PM
01/29/15 04:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Originally Posted by brucat
Thanks for the pic and update Matt. Are you not using a hippety-hop to retrieve the ground tackle? Those marks are big for the boat, but not huge. How deep is the water there?

Regarding safety/medical, this is an ISAF event, and Matt is a NRO with decades of cat sailing experience. By the sounds of it, they're short on assets, and Matt is living that every day. He's possibly in the best position to enact future changes. But if there's something we can do from the US Sailing Multihull Racing Committee side, let me know. Safety is one of our mandates.

Of course, isn't this the event that infamously shorted PU many years ago? Time to crack open the lessons learned reports?

Mike


When I was laying marks for JC during his practice session, the water was no more than 20feet deep. Often more shallow.

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