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by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: wildtsail7] #277408
02/01/15 10:37 PM
02/01/15 10:37 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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stop jumping on the bright shinny object.... broken masts.... or another round of bashing Nacra build quality ...

The fact is the breeze was measured 18 to 23 with gusts... measured by Bounds and confirmed by the weather buoy..
The issue... Why are so many masts finding the bottom? Why were so many teams on the beach or in the hospital... The conditions were below the class max of 25... (Hell they had a medal race in Tornado's in 25 to 30 with gusts...)

My answer... ISAF ego by members of the technical committee stopped nacra from adding t foils after the carbon mast snafu was solved ...

The politically incorrect move is to lower the wind max to 20 or 22 and just err on the safety side till the next quad.
The game is sailboat racing... not survivor...
When almost half the fleet of pros punts.. Its not sailboat racing.... its a mistake founded in ego.

so...stop killing the fleet for no reason.... half the fleet made the call to bail because the ultimate goal is Rio and its not likely to blow stink there.


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277409
02/02/15 02:29 AM
02/02/15 02:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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And... you've got to finish before you can win.

If you destroy your boat, well, you're out.


Blade F16
#777
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277411
02/02/15 05:48 AM
02/02/15 05:48 AM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?


I'm boatless.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277412
02/02/15 09:23 AM
02/02/15 09:23 AM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
stop jumping on the bright shinny object....


Funny this all got stirred up again by a bot post smile


Jay

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Pressure Drop] #277413
02/02/15 09:27 AM
02/02/15 09:27 AM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
How about an Olympic multi that isn't youth-sized and can handle sailing weather?


Perhaps explain "youth sized"?

My understanding from lots of other threads is that by weight/size, most USA/north american crews are a lot bigger/heavier than crews from other nations?

So "Youth size" to an American may be best suited for a Chinese team which weighs somewhat less?

Of course, these same countries competed rather well on the T boats, but I believe the move the the 17 foot version was that the T "isn't female/smaller crew friendly"?

Kinda feels like a circular argument...


Jay

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #277414
02/02/15 09:27 AM
02/02/15 09:27 AM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?


I'm sure the teams would be able to tell us if the masts broke before or after the boat went over.


Jay

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #277416
02/02/15 11:47 AM
02/02/15 11:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?


Educated guess based on having sailed on the Bay a bunch and reading reports of turtled boats. I could be wrong.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277419
02/02/15 01:12 PM
02/02/15 01:12 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Shallow water in Florida? Who knew... laugh But we're kinda taking that's what broke them as fact, when we don't know. That's all I'm saying.


I'm boatless.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #277420
02/02/15 02:11 PM
02/02/15 02:11 PM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Is there a sealed mast (buoyant) rule in place for the N17?


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277421
02/02/15 03:56 PM
02/02/15 03:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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SE MI / NE IN
Surely someone has JC on speed dial and can resolve this quickly.


Jeff R

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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: rehmbo] #277422
02/02/15 06:24 PM
02/02/15 06:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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The bottom is a hard, clayey sand - and only 10-15 ft. down.

On Monday, the waves were 2x4's - 2 ft high and 4 ft apart.

When boats go down the mine like this in those conditions, it's a pretty safe assumption the bottom is the culprit for a broken mast:
[Linked Image]


Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277426
02/02/15 08:58 PM
02/02/15 08:58 PM
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Jay Glaser Offline
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It was pretty windy Monday. I just checked the Dinner Key light for the time they were racing and it shows plenty of puffs over 30. When the mark boat was reporting 22 the GBR coachboat with calibrated wind instruments on an fixed 8 foot mast was reading a puff of 32. I would go with that number. As far as if the masts failed on impact or from contact with the bottom the team I rescued did not really know but they said it happened really fast. I did not see any mud on the top of their sail.
This is the first time I saw the N17s race in person and was very impressed at how easily the top teams are sailing them.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: mbounds] #277427
02/02/15 09:12 PM
02/02/15 09:12 PM
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Posts: 44
new2sailin2 Offline
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It is interesting to read when ISAF conducted the trials for the multihull the Nacra was not tested in the capsize test http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/MultihullEvaluationAppendix2SailorBoatFeedbackDataV21-[12459].pdf

If I remember there was a long letter from one of the Olympic sailors at the trials saying Nacra had broken the mast previously . They thought it should have been tested in the capsize. Knowing Nacra they would have done a lot more testing before the carbon masts were released to the public.

As for the changing to foils again I think some research will show that would be a major change. ISAF which is controlled by all the national authorities of sailing don't do major changes in a 4 year cycle. I remember Tornado wanting changes and it was rejected as it was mis Olympic cycle. After Brazil then there will be changes and then a lot of countries that have invested in a new boat will complain. The idea is not to change boats and equipment to reduce the costs of sailing.

I think that is why ISAF agreed to the submission http://www.sailing.org/tools/docume...nandBeyondEventsandEquipmentRegulations-[15564].pdf which locks the classes in for 8 years.

Just a little bit of research shows there seemed to be a problem with Nacra mast even at the trials. That equipment is locked in for 8 years. Though there can be changes after the Olympics.Whether countries will allow the change after investing in a new design would be another question.

Sorry the links don't seem to format properly you will have to copy and paste in your browser.

Last edited by new2sailin2; 02/02/15 09:16 PM.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: new2sailin2] #277429
02/02/15 09:27 PM
02/02/15 09:27 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I think we're being a little over-critical here...I would expect the same kind of damage result from any of the top catamaran racing classes in that kind of breeze. Would I hate to have that kind of break down? Absolutely. The expense is really what stings teams that are trying to string together a campaign (which is a lot of them - this crap is expensive). I really have a lot of respect for anyone competing at this level but I also feel like I should point out that someone is winning even through all of the pain. As a competitor I would look at those people and try to figure out what they are doing differently? I still feel like we should be championing the fact that there are multihulls involved at all.

As far as capsize testing, I don't even think the N17 had anything close to this mast during the evaluation phase - so it wouldn't have mattered.

If this kind of result is to be avoided, we (I use that term broadly) need to decide if the boats are to be made more bullet proof, capsize resistant, or if the wind limits should be reduced.


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Jay Glaser] #277431
02/03/15 12:31 AM
02/03/15 12:31 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Class rules are 25 sustained... Puffs don't count.. per the rules. The conditions on Key Biscayne sound normal for North America with a front coming through.... High teens to low 20s with 10 knot puffs rolling down the course... The puffs are always the issue ...

BUT.... do you want to argue that the F18s would have been on the beach... We know the Tornado's would have been fine.. Nacra 20s race up the Atlantic coast for 1000 miles and don't blow up or kill their crews. Hobie 16s go racing with far less professional fleets top to bottom in those conditions.

How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these "by defintion" RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277438
02/03/15 11:13 AM
02/03/15 11:13 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these "by defintion" RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.


Just based on the numbers it looks like the top of the fleet was doing more than just surviving. Clearly some of the teams have the boat figured out.


David Ingram
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: David Ingram] #277439
02/03/15 11:32 AM
02/03/15 11:32 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these "by defintion" RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.


Just based on the numbers it looks like the top of the fleet was doing more than just surviving. Clearly some of the teams have the boat figured out.


Not taking sides here, but Mark, that post completely contradicts itself. Hobie 16 masts don't survive in 20 feet of water, either. People learn how to race them without capsizing. At this level of competition, that means in 20+ knots of breeze.

I'm not rooting for anyone other than the USA, but it's pretty obvious, at least from the results that are pretty consistent from regatta to regatta by now, that there are several teams who have figured out how to thrive on this boat. Sadly, none of them live here...

Mike

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277445
02/03/15 02:05 PM
02/03/15 02:05 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Mike... the point is not... will masts break in 15 to 20 feet of water... (Of course they will)..

The point is definitely NOT has the boat been figured out by some people... (Yes it has)..

The point is... the boat is UNSTABLE so that BAD LUCK knocks out teams WHO DO KNOW HOW TO SAIL THE BEAST...

The key question... WHY would you want to use a boat that favors the lucky?

Take JC.... do you think he doesn't know how to sail the damn boat... or was he just unlucky?

Now... some teams were unlucky and then could not get a replacement mast... their game was over. (how many spare parts do you need to backstop a world event??? 5 masts were not enough so that is a legit issue.)

Some teams were unlucky and did time in the hospital.. (How lucky do you have to be to race N17s? ...Notice the number of helmets being worn... Wonder why this fleet is so much different then other beach cats...)

Mark Mendelblatt has done TWO Olympics in other boats... do you think he can't sail the damn boat... He opted to hit the beach!

Bill Roberts... the designer of the Supercats and RC 27s... and Goran Marstorm (Builder of Tornados) nailed the core philosophy...

You want a boat for the Olympics that is technically challenging to sail FAST...... a formula 1 like boat.. so that SAILING SKILL determines the gold medal.
You don't want to race the family car....Not enough refinement to test sailing skill... Luck is too much a factor in the race.
You also don't want a boat that is unstable .. and just an issue to SAIL pointy end up in standard conditions of a front passing through BAD LUCK using an unstable boat should not be part of the game.

I get it... Gen Xers disagreed with me when the N17s issues became apparent. ...They think its a skill thing... They were wrong. After 2 years of training on the boat...ALL of the international teams should have been racing hard... not half of them on the beach.

The only fair solution in the last two years of the quad is to lower the wind max.. You minimize the safety issues and take BAD LUCK (due to the boat) out of the competition as best you can.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #277446
02/03/15 02:22 PM
02/03/15 02:22 PM
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Mark - JC was having a bad week. His best race - a 26th - was the last one - that had the lightest wind. I watched him cross the line every time he finished and he was not a happy guy. It's a way different game when you're the nut on the tiller than the muscle in the front of the boat.

The boat is not UNSTABLE (as you put it). It's certainly twitchier than an F-18 (that weighs 50 kg more), but the photos of the boat leaping out of the water are not representative of the boat's general performance. I never once saw a boat do that in Miami. I saw more of that with the "foiling" A-Class cats at the Alter Cup.

Only 3 of the top 27 teams overall had two letter scores racing in the extreme conditions on Monday.

Bottom line - the USA sucks in this class (in comparison to the rest of the world).

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: mbounds] #277448
02/03/15 05:23 PM
02/03/15 05:23 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Matt

Obviously the US Sailors are working on raising their game... The US put a handful of sailors into the medal round. They knew it could take 8 years to be competitive. Hope springs eternal.

RE the N17
What accounts for the International Fleet getting blitzed in the big breeze?


crac.sailregattas.com
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