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Re: Reefer Madness [Re: northsea junkie] #275233
09/09/14 05:51 AM
09/09/14 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
When I capsize, I'm used to dive and swim to the masttop. That's necessary because I have a net-tramp which catches no wind. So my capsized cat has no tendency to float with weight displacement to the correct uprighting position.
So I nearly always have to swim the mast to that position. And then I have to go back to my lower hull as quick as possible before it changes its position to the wind.

I do that always by using the shroud of the lower hull .Passing my hands quickly.(with gloves on!).


Ofcourse I wonder what I would do in the hypothetical situation (I was never there) that I wanted a cat to turtle because of frightening circumstances (Like approaching lightning with strokes nearby in the water, two times auto-uprighting immediately followed by flip to the other side, couldn't hold myself to the capsized cat, etc)

So, okay my proposal to swim dive in that situation was a bit the talk of a windsurfer who is used to lose his board/sail in high waves. But with my experience using the cat shroud, I would certainly use this to go to the masttop. But only if that seemed to be the best and absolute necessary solution for my emergency situation.

That would be (and should be) a hard decision.


It would - and it is. I forgot you have that open mesh trampoline. It's probably possible to flip the boat in a controlled manner so that the mast is downwind on the flip. That should make it go turtle. But! should you miss and the boat spin around due to the drag of the sails in the water, getting it turtled after that point may be impossible without righting and trying it again.

A well sealed mast will want to pop up and eventually get the boat on its side...but, I would also be concerned that I'm asking a lot of the sealant at the top of the mast that is plunged 32 feet below the surface for any extended period. I would be afraid that it would eventually leak and then I might have an impossible time trying to right the boat afterwards. I still think your best bet is to try and get the mainsail down and controlled when it's just crazy windy. It's definitely not easy, though.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275235
09/09/14 06:18 AM
09/09/14 06:18 AM

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I have been in my share of lightning storms out on the water.

scary chit for sure but dumping the main, flipping the boat and getting in the water with lightning all around does not seem like a good decision to me.

I would rather take my chances on the boat, avoid touching any metal, and hope that if my mast gets hit, i am not in a puddle of water that will conduct the charge through me.

several years ago we had the topic "if anyone has first hand knowledge of someone beinghit by lightning" many people had stories of cats on anchor, on land and in a marina getting hit but almost none of a boat underway (not saying it's not possible) but rare

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275249
09/09/14 05:06 PM
09/09/14 05:06 PM
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Concerning the video Ronald posted of the gang o people failing to right that topcat?...
Surely that mast is full of water.
My experience with jib only on a TheMightyHobie18 is that the boat did sail to windward, all 3 times. None of them by choice.
The jib was a little smaller than stock however.(an old school T jib)

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jbecker] #275304
09/11/14 11:40 AM
09/11/14 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jbecker
As part of learning about my new boat, a Viper F16, and how it behaves in various configurations, I tried the "jib only" thing in light air this weekend. The lee helm was pretty much unmanageable and even a beam reach was barely doable. I had a similar experience when caught in a thunderstorm many years ago on an 18' P-Cat on Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR. I dropped the main to reduce sail, but then could make no headway to windward, and the lee helm was wicked.
...

Anyway, good discussion. I agree that it's good to know what your options are when you get caught in more wind than you really want to be out in.


Options for each type boat, AND wind conditions !!

The Hobie-20 , was efficient enough to actually do a TACK,
if everything was done Perfect. The day we practiced
jib-only, the wind was blowing 28 to 35mph. We got a full tack about
once in every 4 tries ; that told us to rely on a JIBE if
we needed to reverse direction.
We never practiced jib only in light wind on the hobie-20, but
i imagine it would handle quite differently; just like a larger
rudder would make your cat handle differently.

Bille

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #275305
09/11/14 12:47 PM
09/11/14 12:47 PM

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can you sail upwind jib only?

I have sailed home from camping jib only down wind but i haven't seen anyone able to make any real ground upwind - jib only.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #277736
02/26/15 05:23 PM
02/26/15 05:23 PM

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well 2 months later and i purchased a 6.0 that was rebuilt with a reefing main

last week i sailed it solo in 20-25 mph, reefed and it was a blast
handled very well, no excessive weatherhelm nor deadly leehelm

The how:
sail is lowered off the hook at the head of mast and the ring is is lowered about 4' (size of bottom sail panel).

There is a very large spin lock in the base of the mast track to lock the main halyard (that is now off the hook)

reef points in the luff (new downhaul), and across the sail and leach (new clew)

another slug in the masttrack at the bottom of new foot

the sail has 2 reef patches sewn into so line/bungee can be used to roll up extra sail - which lays on the side of boom

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #277756
03/02/15 06:43 AM
03/02/15 06:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by MN3
well 2 months later and i purchased a 6.0 that was rebuilt with a reefing main

last week i sailed it solo in 20-25 mph, reefed and it was a blast
handled very well, no excessive weatherhelm nor deadly leehelm

...


NICE ;
Really Glad Ya enjoyed that !!!!

Question for my Hobie 21se :

I wanna get rid of the hook and ring, at the head of
mast and delete the down-haul below the boom. I think
a roller boom on the foot of the Main, and winch for
the halyard , will be faster way to reduce sail size, with
way more options for size.

Will i need a larger pulley at the top of my mast; and how
big a winch,(along with what gearing) will i need to tighten
my new and stronger main-sail halyard ?

Bille

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #277758
03/02/15 07:02 AM
03/02/15 07:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Bille
Originally Posted by MN3
well 2 months later and i purchased a 6.0 that was rebuilt with a reefing main

last week i sailed it solo in 20-25 mph, reefed and it was a blast
handled very well, no excessive weatherhelm nor deadly leehelm

...


NICE ;
Really Glad Ya enjoyed that !!!!

Question for my Hobie 21se :

I wanna get rid of the hook and ring, at the head of
mast and delete the down-haul below the boom. I think
a roller boom on the foot of the Main, and winch for
the halyard , will be faster way to reduce sail size, with
way more options for size.

Will i need a larger pulley at the top of my mast; and how
big a winch,(along with what gearing) will i need to tighten
my new and stronger main-sail halyard ?

Bille


Bille, there are some structural considerations with going to a tensioned halyard setup too. Going to this setup will double the compression on the mast over the typical ring setup. I can't say whether or not this will be a problem but it will probably mean you at least need to do something to beef up the pulley setup at the top of the mast.


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #277761
03/02/15 12:24 PM
03/02/15 12:24 PM
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"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jollyrodgers] #277762
03/02/15 01:35 PM
03/02/15 01:35 PM
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Posts: 5,590
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Originally Posted by jollyrodgers

You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.


+1 I know the mast cap which held the halyard on my N20 was somewhat flimsy and most likely wouldn't hold up to the kind of force needed to keep the cunningham tight..


Jay

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: jollyrodgers] #277763
03/02/15 02:04 PM
03/02/15 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.


Absolutely sure.

Look at the mast as a complete system and tension the luff of the sail with it connected at the bottom of the mast and hooked at the top. That's one line of force....let's say 200lbs. Now, don't hook the top of the sail at the top of the mast and run a tensioned halyard back down the mast to somewhere at it's base. That's TWO lines of force that the mast now needs to resist....double that 200 lbs and the mast now has 400 lbs of pressure on it. It's just like any purchase system - but in this case, you aren't getting any more purchase on the sail because it's directly part of the single line of force.

It's the whole reason why we live with the hooks at the top of our masts. The loads are less and the masts can be lighter.


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jeff Peterson] #277764
03/02/15 02:38 PM
03/02/15 02:38 PM
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GLAD i Asked ; i better just leave that part of the system alone.

I'll just add an extension on the hook, at the top of the mast
for reefing, (like we did on the H-20).

Thanks : Bille

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #277774
03/03/15 03:50 PM
03/03/15 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.


Absolutely sure.

Look at the mast as a complete system and tension the luff of the sail with it connected at the bottom of the mast and hooked at the top. That's one line of force....let's say 200lbs. Now, don't hook the top of the sail at the top of the mast and run a tensioned halyard back down the mast to somewhere at it's base. That's TWO lines of force that the mast now needs to resist....double that 200 lbs and the mast now has 400 lbs of pressure on it. It's just like any purchase system - but in this case, you aren't getting any more purchase on the sail because it's directly part of the single line of force.

It's the whole reason why we live with the hooks at the top of our masts. The loads are less and the masts can be lighter.

i am pretty sure that i had a conversation with Bill Roberts, Super Cat designer, in 1981 about this. IIRC the force on the luff of the sail, say 200# is a constant(not really constant, because of down haul and mainsheet adjustments) . Each part of a 2:1 halyard system would have half of the force on it. 100# in this example. The loads are spread out differently and mast bend may be slightly different with each system i think.
Weight savings comes from eliminating the wire halyard, and wire could be problematic when used for halyards. Maybe a new high tech sort of line would work with some sort of cleat system at the base like in the example of the retro fitted nacra.
The direct hook at the top first seen on the T in the 60's got rid of any changes in the length of a tradition halyard system during a rough go out. They didn't adjust their downhaul while sailing, so if the top creeped down they would loose downhaul pressure when they needed it most.
If you can solve any problems there may be from just adding a hook lower down on the mast, that is supposed to be a good solution for reefing.
with all the engineers that sail cats the answer to the halyard doubling the force on the mast question, should be easy. a math guy i am not.

Last edited by jollyrodgers; 03/03/15 03:52 PM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #277801
03/05/15 06:26 AM
03/05/15 06:26 AM

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interesting idea to deal with the compression issues

mast compression solution


Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.


Absolutely sure.

Look at the mast as a complete system and tension the luff of the sail with it connected at the bottom of the mast and hooked at the top. That's one line of force....let's say 200lbs. Now, don't hook the top of the sail at the top of the mast and run a tensioned halyard back down the mast to somewhere at it's base. That's TWO lines of force that the mast now needs to resist....double that 200 lbs and the mast now has 400 lbs of pressure on it. It's just like any purchase system - but in this case, you aren't getting any more purchase on the sail because it's directly part of the single line of force.

It's the whole reason why we live with the hooks at the top of our masts. The loads are less and the masts can be lighter.

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #277803
03/05/15 07:17 AM
03/05/15 07:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3
interesting idea to deal with the compression issues

mast compression solution


Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.


Absolutely sure.

Look at the mast as a complete system and tension the luff of the sail with it connected at the bottom of the mast and hooked at the top. That's one line of force....let's say 200lbs. Now, don't hook the top of the sail at the top of the mast and run a tensioned halyard back down the mast to somewhere at it's base. That's TWO lines of force that the mast now needs to resist....double that 200 lbs and the mast now has 400 lbs of pressure on it. It's just like any purchase system - but in this case, you aren't getting any more purchase on the sail because it's directly part of the single line of force.

It's the whole reason why we live with the hooks at the top of our masts. The loads are less and the masts can be lighter.


Halyard locks have been around for a while to deal with that. I saw a cool one Hall Spars just developed on facebook last week but I can't find the link.

http://www.hallspars.com/v/vspfiles/hall_products_autolocks.html


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #277804
03/05/15 07:21 AM
03/05/15 07:21 AM

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i thought using the the Ronstan Compression rope was interesting

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by MN3
interesting idea to deal with the compression issues

mast compression solution


Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.


Absolutely sure.

Look at the mast as a complete system and tension the luff of the sail with it connected at the bottom of the mast and hooked at the top. That's one line of force....let's say 200lbs. Now, don't hook the top of the sail at the top of the mast and run a tensioned halyard back down the mast to somewhere at it's base. That's TWO lines of force that the mast now needs to resist....double that 200 lbs and the mast now has 400 lbs of pressure on it. It's just like any purchase system - but in this case, you aren't getting any more purchase on the sail because it's directly part of the single line of force.

It's the whole reason why we live with the hooks at the top of our masts. The loads are less and the masts can be lighter.


Halyard locks have been around for a while to deal with that. I saw a cool one Hall Spars just developed on facebook last week but I can't find the link.

http://www.hallspars.com/v/vspfiles/hall_products_autolocks.html

Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #277806
03/05/15 07:38 AM
03/05/15 07:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by MN3
i thought using the the Ronstan Compression rope was interesting


Oh, it was! Sorry - didn't mean to steal your thunder. That's a pretty light weight and flexible solution...probably lighter than our hook system AND it would support reefing with nothing extra than a full length high modulus halyard.


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: ] #277809
03/05/15 08:10 AM
03/05/15 08:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by MN3
interesting idea to deal with the compression issues




That was a Simple and elegant way to deal with the problem.

Anyone know of a a place to get one of these for my Hobie-21se ?

I think the rolling boom for reefing ; is back as an option now !!!

Bille

Last edited by Bille; 03/05/15 08:10 AM.
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Bille] #277812
03/05/15 10:05 AM
03/05/15 10:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Bille
Originally Posted by MN3
interesting idea to deal with the compression issues





That was a Simple and elegant way to deal with the problem.

Anyone know of a a place to get one of these for my Hobie-21se ?

I think the rolling boom for reefing ; is back as an option now !!!

Bille


It wouldn't be hard to make...probably terribly expensive to purchase (assuming they even make something small enough for our range).

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/constrictor.asp


Jake Kohl
Re: Reefer Madness [Re: Jake] #277813
03/05/15 10:07 AM
03/05/15 10:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
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Jake Offline
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well..they do offer some pretty small ones. $185 is pretty pricey, though...I would probably try to make something myself.

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/range.asp?RnID=422


Jake Kohl
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