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by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278171
03/31/15 01:12 PM
03/31/15 01:12 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Quote
Damn those annoying facts again, aye Mark?


I noted that their race circle could be "unique"

Quote
race committees who had to juggle with big shifts and different pressure. From 4 to 20 knots, and reaching 40 in some gusts,


Class max is 25 sustained.... so not even close to a no go decision by the RC.

For reference as to what the STANDARD used to be... ... see the medal round of the last Spanish? Tornado Olympics. Conditions were worse....25 to 30 with gusts to 40... boat... no problem managing the conditions.

Ok... how unique was the nacra course?

On the Nacra course... they report
Quote
Sailing the Nacra today proved to be quite an athletic performance with gusts reaching over 30 knots. Only ten boats managed to finish the first race in both groups where capsizes and broken equipment was a common sight.


So.... if your class rules have racing in 25... and you wipe the fleet out in with gusts to 30.... Something is simply wrong.

Its a hell of a boat when the official report has to note the knee brace worn by a medal contender for the injury suffered in the last breeze on event in miami where the same thing happened. ...

Stop making excuses... when did Olympic cat racing become a game of survivor?




Last edited by Mark Schneider; 04/01/15 10:51 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278172
03/31/15 01:18 PM
03/31/15 01:18 PM
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wildtsail7 Offline
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Mark,
Have you sailed a Nacra 17 personally? Everyone I've talked to that has loves how the boat sails. SO your comments that it is "half baked" continue to be unwarranted.
I'm not saying there aren't things that can't be sorted out. But realistically these injuries are also a result of pushing the boats hard (double trapping downwind isn't easy either) in tight quarter big breeze racing. We've had F18 events in big breeze where people have gotten hurt. The speed these boats go and how fast they handle make everything much more dynamic and more room for error.
There are multiple reports of gusts to 40. It is the Nacra 17 class's job to prevent these survival scenarios at major events, so far not much has been done obviously.

Also there is no "n" in 49er.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: David Ingram] #278173
03/31/15 01:22 PM
03/31/15 01:22 PM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Don't they have a name for that wind? It's catabatic for the most part, right?

I think France has the Tenerife, Cali's got the Santa Anna, the Canuks have their Chinook, etc.

I'm currently reading some historical sailing fiction which references this very type of wind off Majorca, Spain. Shows up almost instantly and rips the tops'ls apart...


Jay

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: wildtsail7] #278175
03/31/15 02:08 PM
03/31/15 02:08 PM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Wild

Nope... i haven't sailed a N17... and my, or any sailors fun factor is NOT THE POINT! (is the laser the best single handed dinghy out there.... Nope)

I have No argument that sailors like the boat... but that is like saying College baseball players like aluminum bats over wood bats. The game is changed and you have to choose.... MLB plays the game with wooden bats.

There was a reason that Tornado championship rules had two races per day and a set number of races in the event. Moreover, the open nature of the class rules meant that you got a boat that could survive racing in 25 to OK... gusts to 40...

That is not today's game.

Catastrophic injury and boats blowing up in a capsize change the game A LOT.... If you blow up in a race 1 with two more scheduled for the day... Your competition is over... the rest of the event is practice. You can't improve the boat... SMOD.

Now... is the reason that you blow up due to a lack of skill... or bad luck. When guys like Bundy get taken out by gusts to 30.... You should look at the design of the game... the N17 is the issue.... Worse... It could have been fixed.

Why is this crash and burn factor added by the N17 good for the sport? Would the F18 game be better if more people got hurt and more teams broke their boats racing in conditions where the RC had no reason to pull the plug?

Stop making excuses.... If you think the game is better today ... Make your case!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278176
03/31/15 02:19 PM
03/31/15 02:19 PM
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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I don't think the windspeed alone was the issue. From the reports I have seen the problem was very large variations in both pressure and direction that caused very sudden wipeouts. Those conditions would be very difficult in any boat. Annie Haeger said it was "worse than the Charles."

Any word on Katie's condition? I see they didn't race today.

Looks like Wilmot and JC both had a couple mid-fleet finishes, Sarah with an 8 and a digger. Hope everyone has a safe and productive rest of the week.

Last edited by Jeff.Dusek; 03/31/15 02:19 PM.

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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278178
03/31/15 04:12 PM
03/31/15 04:12 PM
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From Easton/Pettibone via Facebook:

"Hi all, thank you very much for your outpouring of support. A big thanks to Chris Elliot and the US Sailing team medical staff as well as Lindsay Smith and her team of doctors for looking over the MRI and giving us a diagnosis that we can understand in English. Unfortunately our regatta is done, but everyone is doing well. Katie is in full recovery mode to get her knee (PCL and meniscus) back in working order. Her knee is responding well the the PT so we hope to be back on the water soon but we'll have to wait until the full report once the docs check her out state side. To keep her mind off the knee she's also nursing an awesome/awful looking bruise on her bicep from mashing it into the shroud. Mike spent the day on the water learning as much as he could from watching the racing so we could keep our program moving forward during this setback."


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278179
03/31/15 04:12 PM
03/31/15 04:12 PM
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278180
03/31/15 06:33 PM
03/31/15 06:33 PM
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Thanks for the update Jeff.

Looks like they had plenty of spare masts this time, and more manageable breeze.

Mike

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278181
03/31/15 07:21 PM
03/31/15 07:21 PM
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: brucat] #278182
03/31/15 07:25 PM
03/31/15 07:25 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Thanks for the update Jeff.

Looks like they had plenty of spare masts this time, and more manageable breeze.

Mike


and possibly a wind limit that also includes a maximum allowable gust speed.


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Jake] #278190
04/01/15 09:12 AM
04/01/15 09:12 AM
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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would an A-cat have survived those conditions?


Jay

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #278191
04/01/15 09:21 AM
04/01/15 09:21 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
would an A-cat have survived those conditions?



bwahhhaaahahah..uh...no.


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Jake] #278192
04/01/15 10:20 AM
04/01/15 10:20 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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The point is that the A cat is an open rule. You get to build the boat you sail for the conditions of the championship you want to win.

If you plan to win the A cat worlds at Ilse Morada... you better have rudder foils that you can clear weed from.... Other locations... not so important. If you plan on winning the worlds held in the Gorge in Washington State...... you might beef the mast and boat up... (my pre owned mast has that feature) design and build a small sail, etc etc. Building the proper boat is part of the game... Moreover, A cats sets a 22 knot max limit. The Class B Rule spawned the Tornado design which spawned lots of builders... Tornadoes once upon the time had the reputation as being disposable boats... they Oil Canned in waves... Marstrom figured out how to build a bullet proof boat that was seaworthy for the conditions spece'd by the class.. true 25 with big gusts... Continual improvement optimized the boat for the Olympic game..

The rules determine the game...

My point is that ISAF runs this new game lock stock and barrel.... They screwed up... They believed they could get an olympic caliber boat because they were really smart.. Nope!....

The N17 boat needs a fix to restore the game to high performance sailboat racing... NOT crash and burn survivor sailing.... Or they need a rule change that lowers the wind limits plus gusts so that crash and burn don't determine the medals. (A benefit would be fewer sailors with catastrophic injuries)

My preference is to fix the boat... I am convinced that NACRA would want to fix the boat.... they would begin to sell them to weekend warriors then.

Fix the boat or fix the rules for San Paulo!

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 04/01/15 10:43 AM.

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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278193
04/01/15 10:30 AM
04/01/15 10:30 AM
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They should have picked the Hobie 16. There, someone had to say it...

Jake, are you speculating about a new limit, or was there an NOR / SI change? I haven't had time to look.

Mike

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: brucat] #278197
04/01/15 12:44 PM
04/01/15 12:44 PM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
They should have picked the Hobie 16. There, someone had to say it...

Jake, are you speculating about a new limit, or was there an NOR / SI change? I haven't had time to look.

Mike


Pure speculation / suggestion on my part. As far as I know the wind limit is a sustained wind speed and doesn't account for gusts. Since most of this calamity has taken place in gusty conditions I thought maybe it would make sense to have a peak (not sustained) wind speed limit?


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Jake] #278200
04/01/15 03:37 PM
04/01/15 03:37 PM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
They should have picked the Hobie 16. There, someone had to say it...

Jake, are you speculating about a new limit, or was there an NOR / SI change? I haven't had time to look.

Mike


Pure speculation / suggestion on my part. As far as I know the wind limit is a sustained wind speed and doesn't account for gusts. Since most of this calamity has taken place in gusty conditions I thought maybe it would make sense to have a peak (not sustained) wind speed limit?


That would make sense, but only as a guide. What I mean by that is, as soon as something gets into the NOR, SIs or an amendment to those, it becomes a rule, and (unless otherwise stated), is protestable. Nothing good happens after that, and people get crazy about races being held (or not) with wind near the limits...

Mike


Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278201
04/01/15 07:36 PM
04/01/15 07:36 PM
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.


I'm boatless.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #278202
04/01/15 07:56 PM
04/01/15 07:56 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Katie had a bad contusion on her arm and the MRI was for her knee, PCL/Meniscus damage.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #278206
04/02/15 07:24 AM
04/02/15 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.


Right...

Prefacing this with I'm not there...

Historically, at these types of international events, it's never quite that easy. You either get some yahoo who goes out and everyone follows, or the RC with delusions of grandeur, or an OA who won't allow it.

Mike

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: brucat] #278207
04/02/15 07:57 AM
04/02/15 07:57 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.


Right...

Prefacing this with I'm not there...

Historically, at these types of international events, it's never quite that easy. You either get some yahoo who goes out and everyone follows, or the RC with delusions of grandeur, or an OA who won't allow it.

Mike


There's always somebody with "Flight of the Valkyries" running on a continuous loop in their head.


Jake Kohl
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