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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #279595
06/25/15 12:25 AM
06/25/15 12:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Posts: 186
Mark... not trying to start an argument here but I think that as I've requested in the past (before I was working for Nacra) you should talk to some Nacra 17 sailors, they all do love the boat and little to no qualms about breaking masts.
The top sailors realized how to go faster downwind in sustained 25+ (which they shouldn't be sailing in according to class rules anyways) "round the windward mark, crank cunningham as tight as it can go, rotate out to about the shroud, double trap and send it"
I really don't know what the commentators issue is. The said 30K USD not Euro... boats are about 28K USD... with a carbon mast it's not much more than an F18.
Masts are about $5,800 USD, a 49er mast is about $4,500 (and boat is about 26K) and it's a twig and I'm pretty sure they've broke a lot more than the N17. Really not an unreasonable price. Better than the Nacra 20 mast by almost half!
JC is renting a mast because we had a 2 week backorder, he'll have a new one next week.
Hope this clears the air on some questions.
-Todd

Last edited by wildtsail7; 06/25/15 12:28 AM.
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: wildtsail7] #279596
06/25/15 06:20 AM
06/25/15 06:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by wildtsail7
Mark... not trying to start an argument here but I think that as I've requested in the past (before I was working for Nacra) you should talk to some Nacra 17 sailors, they all do love the boat and little to no qualms about breaking masts.
The top sailors realized how to go faster downwind in sustained 25+ (which they shouldn't be sailing in according to class rules anyways) "round the windward mark, crank cunningham as tight as it can go, rotate out to about the shroud, double trap and send it"
I really don't know what the commentators issue is. The said 30K USD not Euro... boats are about 28K USD... with a carbon mast it's not much more than an F18.
Masts are about $5,800 USD, a 49er mast is about $4,500 (and boat is about 26K) and it's a twig and I'm pretty sure they've broke a lot more than the N17. Really not an unreasonable price. Better than the Nacra 20 mast by almost half!
JC is renting a mast because we had a 2 week backorder, he'll have a new one next week.
Hope this clears the air on some questions.
-Todd


Dangit Todd! There you go, letting facts get in the way of a great tirade. ;-) (nice clearing of the air).


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: wildtsail7] #279607
06/25/15 01:11 PM
06/25/15 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Annapolis, MD
No question... the n17 sailors love the boat... just like the Tornado sailors loved their boat.

The commentators made this point. (and I restated that point).

The cost issues relate to ISAF's objective which was to expand the disicipline to new countries... they failed in their objective the package was supposed to be available in the cycle for under 25k euro.

The performance issues are grounded in your philosophy of what the olympic competiton is about. I take the point of view that the boat should NOT be the factor in deciding medals.... boats that are unstable (wheelies and nose dives on the run) like the N17 with equipment that can fail (mast) in a crash in 25k are not the right boat. Bad luck will determine medals in breeze on conditions. Other people disagree.

The new issue raised in the commentary is the belief that the boards vary in performance and getting the right boards is essential. How many boards are teams going through to find that "just right board"?



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #279610
06/25/15 02:18 PM
06/25/15 02:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


The new issue raised in the commentary is the belief that the boards vary in performance and getting the right boards is essential. How many boards are teams going through to find that "just right board"?



Mark, that's the nature of competition at this level. In every Olympic class at every point we've heard of going through masts, hulls, sails, foils, etc. to get "just the right one". I don't think anything you do will keep the guys with the decently funded campaigns from doing exactly that. The fact that this is taking place with foils is less of a knock on Nacra as much as it is a normal function of Olympic sailing.


Jake Kohl
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #279613
06/25/15 03:15 PM
06/25/15 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
I think that i heard the commentary about the boards, but i took it to mean that the AOI and AOA of the boards doesn't always come out the same in each boat. That would be adjusted in the trunks presumably. Molded carbon boards should all be very similar provided the same lay up is used in each set.
The interesting thing is that they were calling them foilers rather than skimmers, which strictly speaking is what they are.

If you think that a N17 is less stable than a 49er, i would argue with you based on the footage of the finals in the China games, and the fact that the 49ers will flip over if left floating by themselves with the sails up-uncleated.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Jake] #279620
06/25/15 04:57 PM
06/25/15 04:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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ThunderMuffin  Offline
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T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


The new issue raised in the commentary is the belief that the boards vary in performance and getting the right boards is essential. How many boards are teams going through to find that "just right board"?



Mark, that's the nature of competition at this level. In every Olympic class at every point we've heard of going through masts, hulls, sails, foils, etc. to get "just the right one". I don't think anything you do will keep the guys with the decently funded campaigns from doing exactly that. The fact that this is taking place with foils is less of a knock on Nacra as much as it is a normal function of Olympic sailing.


I've been told that some laser olympians will order two dozen mast sections and pick one or two from the lot to use.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #279625
06/25/15 10:08 PM
06/25/15 10:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
old hand

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,063
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
I raced cars that had "sealed" motors that were "all the same" to keep costs down. The teams with more money would buy a bunch of motors and keep the motors they liked. There is nothing wrong with that, it is within the rules. That is just the nature of sport at the higher level.


craig van eaton
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Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #279626
06/25/15 11:45 PM
06/25/15 11:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
European MSRP Is below 25k euros by quite a bit

Last edited by wildtsail7; 06/26/15 01:19 AM.
Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. [Re: Mark Schneider] #279628
06/26/15 04:36 AM
06/26/15 04:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Tony_F18  Offline
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There are quite a few affordable slightly used 2nd hand N17s on the market here in Europe but outside the Olympic circuit the class is not really catching on.

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