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WOW [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #28043
01/24/04 10:45 AM
01/24/04 10:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
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majsteve  Offline OP
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Posts: 195
Texas
WOW !! ask a question and get a bunch of info. I love this site.

Carl, its good to see that your still alive and kicking.

TO all that has posted above thank you also.

Recently, my family has been struck with some medical issues and I have been thinking about a project to work on with my father. My grandmother just succumb to pancreatic cancer and my mother has bone cancer. Her prognosis is not good and she has requested that I spend quality time with my father. What better way than to build a boat??

My concept was to take and build an all carbon (or as close as I can) 18 sq with some rig mods (Carl, you'll love this-- a snuffer and spinnaker. Much like the insane stuff we did in the first of the 90's worrell's too much sail and hang on)

I have just realized that I no longer want to worry about crew and training them but yet still have the urge to go insanely fast with the occasional fear that I may be going to fast for my own physical good. Remember that I learned how to sudden stop a boat going 25+ knots a few years back with just a small amount of damage to the calcium deposits in my body (bones).

I also thought that there maybe just a few more truly nutso people out there (like me) that may get a kick out of a boat like it so..........

Any thoughts??

Steve

Last edited by majsteve; 01/24/04 10:47 AM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: Tracie] #28044
01/24/04 10:55 AM
01/24/04 10:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 285
Hampton, Virginia
Tracie Offline
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Tracie  Offline
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Posts: 285
Hampton, Virginia
Mistake. Dennis corrected me. He did not build the boat Claude has it was another one that he sold and he thinks a guy named Mike now has it.

Tracie

Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: majsteve] #28045
01/24/04 05:40 PM
01/24/04 05:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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tami  Offline
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Gulf Coast
Sorry Carl, there are only two categories of 18sq:

Cat. 1 is all up boat weight less than 330 lb
Cat II is 330 lb and over.

There is a website for 18 Squares, Mike Coleman's excellent reference:
http://www.geocities.com/mec_coleman/18square.htm

He describes the class rules &c. for Squares.


There are Lindahl plans available, and there is a guy named Dennis Palin who might be able to help you - Dennis built an ABSOLUTELY gorgeous, fast, Sq, but I think he rather designed it himself. His addy is dpalin@ev1.net

sea ya
tami
ps. The NACRA 18sq is not onedesign, either. The newer models have the 31' mast with laminate higher-aspect sails, the older ones have 30' mast and lower-aspect Dacron sails. Good luck with your endeavour and Welcome To Squaredom. I absolutely love mine!

Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: Tracie] #28046
01/24/04 08:03 PM
01/24/04 08:03 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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I wouldn't say know him,

I met him once at his house here in Cary. At the time we were discussing hiring a coach for our sailing team, but then a nationally ranked laser sailor decided to join the team and, well, we didn't need a coach after that

Definitely a nice guy though. Tell him, that if he remembers me, that I said hi.
-Tad

Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: D_Lemke] #28047
01/24/04 08:05 PM
01/24/04 08:05 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,114
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That looks incredibly uncomfortable. :P

5.5sl conversion to 18(2) [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #28048
01/24/04 09:17 PM
01/24/04 09:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
TheoA Offline
member
TheoA  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 139
Daytona Beach FL
How hard is it?

New beams and tramp
New tiller crossbar
New mainsail (want a sq top anyway...)

Anything else (New rigging obviously)


94 N5.5SL
Re: 5.5sl conversion to 18(2) [Re: TheoA] #28049
01/24/04 11:08 PM
01/24/04 11:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
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Sycho15  Offline
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Bradenton, FL
There is also a NACRA 18sq at the Sarasota Sailing Squadron....


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: 18 Sq Fleet [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #28050
01/25/04 02:19 PM
01/25/04 02:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
D_Lemke Offline
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D_Lemke  Offline
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Posts: 11
Minnesota
Quote
I have always wondered how they managed the wing sails. I would surely be afraid that a capsize would damage the wing.
Also, if it was parked on the beach with the wing up, did the owner get any sleep at all ? I would be very afraid that a gust would hit the boat and capzise/damage it. Raising/lowering the wing every time like the C class ?


The "wing boat" never (to anyone's memory) came close to tipping over. While the softsail boat masts ranged in the 30-32 foot length, the wing was right around 28 feet. Also with the controls, Craig could "power up or down" simply by changing the camber in the wing. Given the platform weighed less than 300 lbs. the wind forces simply were translated in forward speed.

Between races at regatta the wing was allowed to swing free. Since it is symetrical, equal pressure on both sides, so no violent thrashing about like a soft sail. Remember, the thrashing on your softsail takes place because the wind is on one side, then the other causing camber to flop back and forth!

In the evenings, the boat was simply laid on it's side with sail tip on an old (ugly green vinyl) kitchen chair. If weather report indicated bad weather or rain, the sail was just detached from the platform and stored in the covered trailer used to haul wing, hulls, etc.

The Square - both wing and softsail "loves" to park between races. Travel out, sheet in and push tiller away. The boat just sits there. When ready to bail out to start, simply pull tiller towards yoou, the bows swing away from the wind, and sheet traveller in. While parked, it was an enjoyable platform to sit on between races. No banging around on the waves, no flapping jib or main, and no bouncing around with the hulls. Until you have sat on a wide platform, it is hard to describe.


Re: 18 Sq Fleet [Re: D_Lemke] #28051
01/25/04 02:24 PM
01/25/04 02:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
D_Lemke Offline
stranger
D_Lemke  Offline
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Posts: 11
Minnesota
Here is a set of line drawings for the CLIMAX 18 Square. Also will post similar of the NACRA.

Sorry - no info on how I got these or who needs to be credited for drawings.

Attached Files
28261-smclimaxNeg.jpg (217 downloads)
Re: 18 Sq Fleet [Re: D_Lemke] #28052
01/25/04 02:28 PM
01/25/04 02:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
D_Lemke Offline
stranger
D_Lemke  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
Lines for the NACRA 18 SQUARE (circa - 1980-1985) Solid glass, no foam.

Attached Files
28263-smnacra2.jpg (178 downloads)
Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: majsteve] #28053
01/26/04 12:43 AM
01/26/04 12:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
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Posts: 1,449
Steve,
As Tami suggested it could very well be worth your while to talk to Dennis Palin.
He did design his own square.
He built it from 3mm okume ply sheathed in 4.7 oz carbon. I suppose you could call it a carbon hull , with a ply core instead of foam. Carbon beam and even a carbon striker.

I think the hulls came out at 52lbs each and very strong.

Dennis was good enought to allow me to post some construction pics and of course a couple of shots of the finished craft on my web site.
There is a pic of Dennis's creation in the attachment.

Good luck. I hope you build one.

Regards,
Phill

Attached Files
28280-Sq15.jpg (267 downloads)

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: majsteve] #28054
01/26/04 01:53 PM
01/26/04 01:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Michigan
eidietis Offline
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eidietis  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Michigan
I have one of the few 18 square Coyote catamarans. Recent posts about the squares motived me to try to chase down Chris Kilbourn who was the last person known to build one. I finally found him and he indicated that he has one and it is questionable if any more that exist other than his and mine. Contrary to earlier posts, the tooling still exists in Traverse City, Michigan and additional hulls could be built. I have yet to have mine long enough to assemble it but when I do I will post pictures.

Bruno

Re: 18 Sq plans [Re: phill] #28055
01/26/04 01:58 PM
01/26/04 01:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Michigan
eidietis Offline
stranger
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Posts: 6
Michigan
Nice picture of boat but construction pictures did not come through. Would you please attempt to repost.

Re: WOW- an 18 sq with spin design ,-- [Re: majsteve] #28056
01/26/04 02:38 PM
01/26/04 02:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Posts: 800
MI
Hi Steve ,-glad to hear your still kickin too -
sorry to hear about fam. health related difficulties.

Do like the concept ,--an 18 sq with spin snuffer .
New single handed spin class !! It may be a great way to get this class going again ,-it would bring a number of old 189 sqs out and prompt some new ones as well .

John l hulls weighed 30 lbs ea. boat weights could be under 200 inc spin etc , with 193 sq ft mains ,-roughly similar to 18 hts ,but having 10 or 12 ft or unlimited beam as 18 sq rules outlined gives the ability for one to hold it down and really create some extreme potential boat speeds .

Do have some basic concepts for such a design , think experimentation would be the really fun aspect of this type of design and development class .
A more extreme canted planning hull with an added set of forward molded in forward foils to balance the spin , with a spin set on extented pole to provide luff angle and use the huge lift a spin can generate would see this type moving at speeds beyond the 18 planning skiffs.
The exact shape,- area ,-and angle of the forward foils for cats requires some refinment ,but working models on the 60 tris and other experimental sailing craft provide good basic parameters .

fun stuff -

Re: WOW- an 18 sq with spin design ,-- [Re: sail6000] #28057
01/26/04 03:20 PM
01/26/04 03:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Carl,
Just wondering, but are canted hulls as beneficial on a boat as wide as an 18-square as they are on a boat limited to trailerable width?

For that matter, is there any good evidence that they are beneficial on the 8'5" boats?

Re: WOW- an 18 sq with spin design ,-- [Re: sail6000] #28058
01/26/04 06:02 PM
01/26/04 06:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
D_Lemke Offline
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D_Lemke  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
Quote
Do like the concept ,--an 18 sq with spin snuffer .
New single handed spin class !! It may be a great way to get this class going again ,-it would bring a number of old 18 sqs out and prompt some new ones as well .


Carl -

Problem with the old Squares, is the bow and hulls forward of the front beam are not structual to carry spinnaker loads. That is wy they all used very short pig-tails and long forestays to the boaw of each hull. The loading was designed to resist up and down flex - not in and out that a spinnaker might cause.

The old glass hulls only had half a cardboard tube glassed in place along the sides of the hull. (Another reason for oil-canning) When trapping against the side of the hull - always keep your feet at the top of the hull so you don't end up wearing a hull as a pair of boots!

The older aluminum mast was the 5.2 profile extruded to the 30 feet length, and modified with add on to 31-32 feet. I still have my 1983 boat and for a 20 year old still looks great. But - I wouldn't try to add on the spinnaker using the production hulls and the lightweight mast section.

This means having to buy/build and invest in a new set of hulls and a good carbon mast designed for a boat to carry a spinnaker. A big investment for a class that eventually refused to tear-down and travel.

Now - if one were to take a set of Formula hulls, and just convince Performance Cat to extrude longer cross beams, and purchase a longer traveller from Harken, then that might be a better way to go - plus the newer cat hulls are optimized for speed compared to the older Square hulls.

Regardless - if someone wants to schedule a SQUARE MEETING here in midwest, I'd travel for a 3 day event. Plan to get back on the water this summer and shake out cob-webs - but an "A" Class boat is also being considered.

Cheers

Re: WOW- an 18 sq with spin design ,-- [Re: Mary] #28059
01/26/04 06:21 PM
01/26/04 06:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mar

Think the benifits of canted hulls outweigh the disadvantages ,but with proper coresponding design applied.
Some would disagree ,it depends on what the design wishes to accomplish and the windspeeds it may be targeting to be sailed in .Some believe cats are already so fast that waves and sea conditions are the limiting factor at top speeds ,so the focus is on better light wind performance .
Some think faster is more fun and would give up some light wind speed for greater top speed or planning capability.

Recall some posts by noted boat builders that stated the canted hull versions of the same designs were faster, though this most likely at higher speeds . Also we see most development classes going to canted hulls in search of more speed,-A class cats per example ,-also the most successfull current design firms using canted hulls is another indicator,-and the Inter line most notabley in production cats having canted hulls. Some of the C Class designs also use canted hulls ,-state of the art designs with solid wingsails. There are advantages and disadvantages to both types of hull design -canted and non canted.The case can be made equally for either type.

Most of the time cats are sailed heeled to leeward ,-hulls never go through the water perfectly level, paralell, or without sail forces acting on them creating heel and bow down forces as well as a high pressure side , just as boards and foils have.
The ideal attitude and fastest a cat is sailed is with one hull just skimming the surface ,this reduces both types of resistance and drag on hulls ,one being form drag {general shape of hull}that causes resistance , the other frictional resistance {surface area} causing drag, frictional resistance the larger factor in light winds .
One hull in the water with crew on the wire, windward hull flying just above the surface waves of course is where both forms of resistance are greatly reduced and the biggest jump in boat speed occurs. Any that have raced in open fleets with monohulls and evan trimarans will notice this is where beach cats come alive and really leave other sailing craft behind.
Evan in light winds the crew should get forward and to leeward which heels the boat and increases boat speed by lifting the windward hull and effecting sails.

Design of catamarans is an intricate mix of practical engineering ,structural considerations, and art.
It is not just a matter of taking existing hulls and canting them . A new set of benifits and problems come into play and trade offs in design with canted hulls.

A simple analysis or view of a hull traveling through water if visualized or seen in a test tank would have much less form drag if more symetrical, this is the goal and benifit of a canted hull design by alligning the hull cant with ideal heel angle that it is sailed .
Another lesser benifit of a canted hull design is how the boat approaches waves when heeled ,-again more symetrically which combined with wider flatter hull shape as is typical of the canted type design, should be less prone to pitchpole with proper design of larger volume bow sections and hydrodynamic lift from flatter lifting hull shape.

Hull allignment becomes more complex with canted hulls that use deeper narrower bow sections which is no problem at higher speeds with one hull up ,but somewhat a problem at lower speeds and in seas downwind with both hulls in the water.
On hull shapes with canted deep high sided narrow bows there is more of a bow down reaction or tendancy from sail forces , this causes a wider underwater dimension from hull to hull as they submerge more. That is the more the bows submerge the greater the misallignment of canted hulls and the greater the form drag of one hull working against the other . Some C Class cat designs in the past with deep narrow bows had a distictive tow in hull allignment appearance ,-The designers averaged out the allignment and designed this in, again hulls never go through water perfectly level but are always heeled or should be ,with a high and low pressure side.

The solution to this problem when designing a canted hull type is to create a hull that reacts to sail forces equally along its length to heeling to negate bow down effects from sail forces,or evan design in a stern down tendancy, many of the trimaran designs desire this in the ama design with much larger volume bows than stern sections .This is similarly accomplished by larger volume bow sections in cat hull design. The Inter designs are one example of this type of large bow area volume hull design ,having a 16 in. width by station 3 or 4 back from the bow, they work well with spin and have less total hull drag at speed , they are however at some disadvantage to non canted hull types in lighter and medium winds ,no trap type conditions particularly in choppy seas where the sharper deeper bows sections cut through waves better and the boats are not heeled as much .
Hull design is generally divided into 10 equal sections from bow to stern and drawn in overlay of each in sequence ,--see the 18 sq post by D Lenke for an example ,-then side profiles added , waterline and top deck views,and sail plan boards rudders hardware bulkheads etc added,
These are generally refined and revised sometimes hundreds of times with different aspects of design considered with each change or revision such as varied amounts of cant in the hulls ,-larger sails, mast rake ,board locations ,hull variations ,- etc etc .

Some do this just as a hobby !!

The larger the beam of a particular design the less degree of cant is required . That is due to the hull lifting clear at less angle on a larger beam cat . The exact angle of cant required for a planning type hull would place the bottom plane of hull between the direct opposition to the forces at work on it and the optimum verticle lift derived from it.
This varies with wave height and seas conditions , also to a lesser extent with varied boat and crew total weight.
Considerabley more cant is required on the planning type than currently used it would seem if drawn in total section view at sailing attitude and heel.

I think the big advantage of canted hulls will be found in the development towards flatter underwater hull bow section shapes and the hydrodynamic lift created , we already see this trend in a number of A cat designs and the Inter designs. In future cat design development this combined with lifting canted foils and larger lifting spin,with greater luff angles on longer spin pole will develop into a planning type cat design that will be potentially much faster than the planning 18 skiffs, yet unlike skiffs still handle waves and surf which is some of the most fun of catsailing ,-surfing down the backs of big waves ,-It would be evan more fun to plane and lift up to surf most of the time.--- hope we see these soon ,--.


Re: WOW- an 18 sq with spin design ,-- [Re: D_Lemke] #28060
01/26/04 06:29 PM
01/26/04 06:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

Thanks -
a forward crossbeam foil might be the solution in adapting the older 18 sqs to a spin ,-it would transfer loads just as the N -60S needed for the larger jib ,--and later helped with added spin loads with pole attached to the forward hull top connection foil ,--{not an underwater foil} -its an alum crossbeam near the bows in effect .

Thanks Carl [Re: sail6000] #28061
01/27/04 11:35 AM
01/27/04 11:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline OP
member
majsteve  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Tons of feedback!!!! Carl, have you been studying hydrodynamic design since the last time I talked to you?? Really liked the answers you posted.

I have knocked around the idea of canted hulls and a three beam boat to take the load of the spinnaker. Remember the G-cat's -- solid, solid, solid platform in heavy waves and chop. Never flexed, never torqued. I think three carbon beams would be light enough and the extra strength would definitely offset the extra weight. Also, with enough thought placed into the design the front beam should never be a wave slap problem. THink of a playstation style bow. Ok ok ok, I know that I am known to drive the boat nose down but I really think that it will work and look cool too.

Any thoughts. Also have not knocked the idea of stretching the boat to 20 feet and still run with the "Iron man" concept.

Ready to hit around the neck and shoulders.......
Steve

Re: Bow Beams [Re: majsteve] #28062
01/27/04 04:03 PM
01/27/04 04:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11
Minnesota
D_Lemke Offline
stranger
D_Lemke  Offline
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Posts: 11
Minnesota
Steve -

just a quick comment. Back when I first started sailing cats, my first purchase (early 1970's) was a cat with very thin, deep, symmetrical aluminum hulls. The hulls virtually "sliced" through waves, but because they were so small and thin, hobbyhorse became an issue sailing in waves.

On this boat, the manufacturer had included a front cross beam at the bows, which kept the bows stable, provided for a jib bridle wire connect at the bow, but offered (then) a unique feature. The beam was aluminum in construction and of a somewhat triangular shape. The way it was attached, provided a foil "lift" completely across the bow when the bows started going down into waves. In all the time I sailed it, not once did I worry - or come close - to a pitchpole while the bows were down. If you decide to build, a similar arrangement could be incorporated to help pop the bows back up if they start down. Always thought it was a neat idea and wondered why more companies didn't use the concept.

Cheers

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