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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279242
05/28/15 03:36 PM
05/28/15 03:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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I would love to see foiling get developed, if only to find out what type of foils/installations would be both faster and cheaper, then maybe that technology could migrate to a few other classes, sort of how the spinnaker/snuff setup did and the square tops sails and wing shaped masts. It won't happen over night but it's got to start somewhere.

If I were King, I would have the A class split into two fleets, all out, anything goes type foils to encourage developing the 'best' way to do it, and no flying at all for the guys who don't want to fly. I think the Moth class did that for awhile too, when they started foiling didn't they?

Eventually, I would expect a better/cheaper/easier/more stable foiling setup would evolve and once it did, more guys from the non-foiling A's would make the transition to foiling.

If an installation is developed that could easily modify a floater into a flyer, (by simply replacing the dagger trunk) that would help make the transition faster and more affordable allowing more of us poor people into the flying class.

Back to a design type question that got me thinking when I started this thread, once you get a boat up onto foils, does hull shape or water line length matter anymore? What would a new, fully foiling A cat look like? I would think the designers would try to come up with something that would get the hulls up out of the water asap, so the real design work would be in the foil itself, and controlling it easily and consistently, to stay up on the foils the entire race, like the (fast) Moth guys do.

As far as which class rules need to remain, vs. be changed, I guess the two most important factors would be sail area and minimum weight, I don't' know that beam and/or hull length will matter as much once you develop foils that will keep the boat out of the water most of the race. What if there was just one class called, "Foiling Cat" class, where a foiling A would race straight up against a Phantom and a foiling N20. We would quickly see what's faster. Hey wait, what about a foiling Optimist?! Then you could have two classes, the Optimist and the Pessimist!

Ever since I saw the first flying Moth, I've been saying all we need to do is connect two of them side by side and put a mast in the middle, presto, flying cat! Will a full foiling A cat eventually look something like that?


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279243
05/28/15 03:40 PM
05/28/15 03:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Closest thing to it is the Stunt 9 - http://www.s9team.it/home.html


Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Jake] #279244
05/28/15 03:48 PM
05/28/15 03:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Todd

YOU can own and SAIL any damn thing you want to.. However, Sailboat RACING is pretty socialist... If you don't agree with 10 others on a set of rules.... you don't have a class.. Its a SOCIAL CONTRACT...

That is the value of buying into a class.... you agree to the contract of class rules.... It protects your investment AND sets your expectations when you go out racing... Most of those old single handed cats survive as race boats BECAUSE they Honor and respect their class rules.... Sailors buy in. You get good turnouts.

Each turn of the development cycle flushes some racers... not a problem when you are growing. So, How fast can you cycle and not flush racers in 2015?

In the two man boats... the N17 doesn't fly. THe Flying Tiger Phantomand the N20c do and are available. I bet that there are only 5 of these in North America and the impact on the F18 fleet is invisible. Not much of a problem.

And then The US A Class decided that International class rules did not work for them and made their own new class last week...
(Lets cycle FASTER....)
(THAT Sucks if you just dropped 25K on the latest ISAF legal DNA flying A class 6 weeks ago.)

So... you now have
ISAF A CLASS Floater ... which HONORS rule 8....No flying boats.
ISAF A class Flyer .... which uses the loopholes in rule 8.... Flying boats.
USA A Class Flyer ... which allows any thing by dumping rule 8 altogether. ... one of a kind flying regattas.

So ... Sail what you want... The A class is cycling like a spinning top...

Time will tell.


Well..ok, but that whole A-cat rule thing was a case study in poor initial presentation. After consideration of the thoughtful and polite feedback they initially received (/sarcasm), Bailey further clarified the NA position as one where they aren't striking parts of the A-class rules for North America but are allowing boats to race on the course with a-cats at non-internationally sanctioned events that fit the a-class rule with the exception of rule 8.

The actual difference of these positions on reality is very slight while the political implications are drastically different. An a-class is still an a-class. An a-class that ignores the recent rule 8 modifications is technically no longer an a-cat but is allowed to race with the a-cats at most of the north american events.


I was at the meeting, so have a pretty good grasp of what was said and although what was leaked to FB and then put on SA might not be what Bailey is saying now, what was said at the meeting is EXACTLY what Bailey is saying now. I'm assuming SA is where many got their info and it's not accurate(big surprise).Mark you're wrong in your interpretation, again big surprise, and if you want to have input that counts, you have to pay your class dues and VOTE, otherwise you're just blowing smoke and it's really getting old.
Big +1 to Mike Krantz's above post.
Quote
When the A-class weight changed from 200lbs to 165 lbs - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the "Bendy" mast came out - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the "C" foils came out - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the new foilers arrived - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When Rule 8 is dropped - that was going to be then of the A-Class

The last two NA's have been the largest ever, and the worlds are consistently drawing over 100 boats.

The sky is falling....
If you want to come play, come play, we'd love to have you.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279246
05/28/15 04:05 PM
05/28/15 04:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Thanks Mike! That is exactly what I had in mind, I can't believe we haven't seen this here in the USA yet. I crunched some numbers from the website, it's only 13.5 feet long, weighs about 170lbs. Costs about $17,000. US Dollars (15,500 Euros).

In their description they talk about the wand system of foil adjustment so the skipper can concentrate on sailing vs. moving the foil around.

And they say they have straight boards for kids and a shorter mast for high winds. Is there a class of these racing in Europe yet?

For about the price of a Wetta, you could be flying one of these instead. Can I race it in the full foiling A cat class? It would measure in, right? It's shorter and weighs more, so it wouldn't be 'outside' the A class rules, would it? If it doesn't exceed any A Cat box rules it should be (foiling) class legal... right? For less than the price of a floating A, you could be foiling!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279247
05/28/15 04:11 PM
05/28/15 04:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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ISAF rules prohibit the use of wands/active controls. The Moths get around this by specifically overruling ISAF in their class rules. So until ISAF changes their rule, it is not legal under any other class and the Stunt 9 can only race one-design in their own class.

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279248
05/28/15 04:17 PM
05/28/15 04:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Thanks again, are there many of these Stunt 9's out there yet? I wonder why it hasn't caught on over here yet? I was thinking about a Moth until you talked me out of it, but this boat seems to solve the 'sink or swim' issue the Moth suffers from, and it costs about the same as a Moth!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279252
05/28/15 04:51 PM
05/28/15 04:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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One 'negative' thing I read on the S.9 site, it says it needs 6 knots of wind to foil, and 8 knots to foil upwind. Which has me wondering just how well it points. I remember a few years ago when the C Class was experimenting with foiling, they said they couldn't point as well once they got up on the foils.

Have they found a solution to that? And if not, how about simply changing the race course to a more foil friendly course, like a trapezoid or such? Start on a broad reach, go like hell, make a left around a mark, go downwind, gibe, go like hell again, make another left, then one short upwind leg back to the start line, do it again.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279254
05/28/15 07:11 PM
05/28/15 07:11 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



buy 2, i'll drive down all the time to race ya

smile
Originally Posted by Timbo
Thanks again, are there many of these Stunt 9's out there yet? I wonder why it hasn't caught on over here yet? I was thinking about a Moth until you talked me out of it, but this boat seems to solve the 'sink or swim' issue the Moth suffers from, and it costs about the same as a Moth!

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279256
05/28/15 08:45 PM
05/28/15 08:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Boston, Ma
Originally Posted by Timbo
... Which has me wondering just how well it points. I remember a few years ago when the C Class was experimenting with foiling, they said they couldn't point as well once they got up on the foils...


Talking about how well a boat points is really pretty useless in my opinion. Yes, when foiling the angle relative to the true wind will very likely be greater than when not foiling. This is because the apparent wind nearly doubles and the angle changes significantly. What you really need to think about is VMG.

I've sailed a moth several times, and trust me, it goes upwind just fine!

Last edited by Jeff.Dusek; 05/28/15 08:46 PM.

USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #279259
05/28/15 10:19 PM
05/28/15 10:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Actually Todd, I read Bill Howards post on face book thanking the class for just flushing his 28K investment down the tubes.

Had nothing to do with the Sailing Anarchy reaction..



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Mark Schneider] #279275
05/29/15 09:32 AM
05/29/15 09:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
That is the value of buying into a class.... you agree to the contract of class rules.... It protects your investment AND sets your expectations when you go out racing...


A very interesting thought, Mark. Which might help explain why handicap systems suck.. Consider this hypothesis:

Sailors who didn't originally "buy in" to the concept (and purchased yachts outside of a particular class) who now want the "social contract" advantages (class racing) and want the "socialists" (those adhering to said social contract) to bend for their whim(s).

These socialists, in the spirit of cooperation, attempt to incorporate these outliers while balancing a semblance of fairness (through the handicap rating).

Further, some outliers may seek to capitalize (herafter referred to as "capitalists") on this handicap system's inherent weakness (accurate data/ratings) to dominate the social contract they have been allowed access to.

Does this perpetuate socialism or capitalism? hmmmm.....


Jay

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: waterbug_wpb] #279280
05/29/15 11:56 AM
05/29/15 11:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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OH GEEZ.... Why do you bait me???

How can I resist a debate equivalent to the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin?

The premise of your argument is that the capitalists demand entry into the socialist game is not reality.

The analogies to our ugly history with the Hobie edict is not accurate.. The one off or dead boat society boats were NOT asking to start with the Hobie 20s in their socialist race... They were asking to increase the size of the pie by adding another start to the regatta. The capitalists were delighted to look down their nose at the backward socialists and play with their state of the art toys (spins and lifting foils) This worked well and then Hobie CA exercised their monopoly with control of the Organizing authorities aka the Yacht clubs and turned down your request for a handicap start. The socialist feared the allure of the capitalists sexy hot toys. The capitalists simply took their game to a competing socialist organization... the regions blue blazer Yacht clubs and their game continued.

Your argument that the capitalists are rent seeking by gaming the handicap table has merit. Capitalists always look for areas with asymmetry in information. A new design is a perfect example of how you can exploit this asymmetry and collect some pickle dishes. The only solution is a transparent measurement based handicap system that can adjust to new facts on the water with an adjustment to the formula on an annual basis.

In the real world... the socialist are forced to drop out of their failing social structure and join the capitalists in their handicap race, all be it with a very dated ride. I conclude that the eternal dialectic between socialist an capitalist will continue and the world is better off with this dyanmic in play. The socialists enjoy their fun factor until they can't... the capitalists accept the socialists joining them and giggle as they take advantage of the asymmetry in information and rack up some pickle dishes at the expense of the socialists.

To see this in real life... visit Key West and watch the J70 guys party with the PHRF national championship equivents on the PHRF circles.
Grin


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Mark Schneider] #279281
05/29/15 12:36 PM
05/29/15 12:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
OH GEEZ.... Why do you bait me???

How can I resist a debate equivalent to the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin?

The premise of your argument is that the capitalists demand entry into the socialist game is not reality.



Yes, it is a slow day here (on the forum and the office smile )...

But the socialist/capitalist was meant to draw out those folks on the drill/Muslim thread (which is pretty dumb thing to do, but ...)


Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The only solution is a transparent measurement based handicap system that can adjust to new facts on the water with an adjustment to the formula on an annual basis


Or give every participant a trophy. Seems to work for youth soccer (I think I threw up in my mouth...)

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 05/29/15 12:39 PM.

Jay

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279282
05/29/15 12:40 PM
05/29/15 12:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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Lot's of fishing going on here. Sure you guys don't want to post on this forum instead: http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/
[Linked Image]


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: rehmbo] #279894
07/13/15 02:14 PM
07/13/15 02:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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RickWhite  Offline

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
After years of urging I am finally writing another book. This time I have a ton of guest authors covering almost every nook and cranny of our sport.
And really excited about a pretty lengthy chapter on foiling.
Glad this thread popped up.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: RickWhite] #279897
07/13/15 03:30 PM
07/13/15 03:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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Originally Posted by RickWhite
After years of urging I am finally writing another book. This time I have a ton of guest authors covering almost every nook and cranny of our sport.
And really excited about a pretty lengthy chapter on foiling.
Glad this thread popped up.
Rick


Hey Rick, I'm reading one of your books right now - the ASA 114 cruising multihull book.

When my course instructor ordered it and it arrived I opened it and was like "I know that guy!"

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #279898
07/13/15 06:18 PM
07/13/15 06:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by Timbo
In their description they talk about the wand system of foil adjustment so the skipper can concentrate on sailing vs. moving the foil around.

And they say they have straight boards for kids and a shorter mast for high winds. Is there a class of these racing in Europe yet?

For about the price of a Wetta, you could be flying one of these instead. Can I race it in the full foiling A cat class? It would measure in, right? It's shorter and weighs more, so it wouldn't be 'outside' the A class rules, would it? If it doesn't exceed any A Cat box rules it should be (foiling) class legal... right? For less than the price of a floating A, you could be foiling!


We sailed it at TFW at Lake Garda about a week and a half ago, it was a fun little boat. Will post more in a bit.

Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #280760
10/08/15 09:16 AM
10/08/15 09:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
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Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: Timbo] #280790
10/13/15 11:37 AM
10/13/15 11:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Foiling is a fad.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Thoughts on foiling... [Re: David Ingram] #280792
10/13/15 04:17 PM
10/13/15 04:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Timbo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Foiling is a fad.


I don't know about that Dave...looks like even the lead haulers are getting into it, check out this video of a 'foiling' ocean racing mono, at about 1:25 the whole boat comes out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3on5CYbZP4


Blade F16
#777
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