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2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? #281099
11/17/15 01:45 PM
11/17/15 01:45 PM
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ThunderMuffin Offline OP
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Its being reported on other sailing forums that the new cat for 2020 will be a foiler - perhaps a N17 with a fully-foiling set of.. err.. foils.

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Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281103
11/17/15 03:44 PM
11/17/15 03:44 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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ISAF report said they plan to let the N17 evolve into a full foiler.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
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Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281117
11/18/15 08:58 AM
11/18/15 08:58 AM
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Philip
USA #1006
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281124
11/18/15 08:40 PM
11/18/15 08:40 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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I wonder if they'll go with the J foils we see today on those Red Bull cats, and will they have the Wand as a ride height controller?


Blade F16
#777
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: Timbo] #281126
11/18/15 10:33 PM
11/18/15 10:33 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Wands would be illegal under ISAF rules. iits not a sailor regulated control device. its automatic!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281127
11/18/15 11:15 PM
11/18/15 11:15 PM
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San Diego, CA
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Pressure Drop Offline
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haha so if the current 17 can't handle the stresses imposed by sailing in displacement mode, what re-engineering will be required to account for the added stress of "foiling"?

17 campaigns sure seem to be getting expensive. What, with some teams onto their 3rd and 4th platform already, and the boat having yet to even see an Olympiad.

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281134
11/19/15 07:47 PM
11/19/15 07:47 PM
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Green Bay WI
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All the current 17s that aren't the new 17 will be worth what??? image: Pied Piper with children

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281147
11/21/15 07:26 PM
11/21/15 07:26 PM
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Is this a case of not having the cake and eating it too?

The sailors (and other classes in a manner of thinking) voted to make the N17 the Olympic class. No Olympic boat he ever been inexpensive (think variances in established OD boats), and a new design out of the gate can only be worse.

Now ISAF is looking at a foiling option to make this the most exciting Olympic boat ever, and we're complaining?

Mike

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: brucat] #281157
11/22/15 08:54 AM
11/22/15 08:54 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Is this a case of not having the cake and eating it too?

The sailors (and other classes in a manner of thinking) voted to make the N17 the Olympic class. No Olympic boat he ever been inexpensive (think variances in established OD boats), and a new design out of the gate can only be worse.

Now ISAF is looking at a foiling option to make this the most exciting Olympic boat ever, and we're complaining?

Mike


Well, technically, a few guys come out of the woodwork to bad mouth the N17 who were clearly Tornado aficionados.

The upper end of the sport is definitely trending that way. I don't see any harm in the Olympics moving that direction. Cost has affected the field but it hasn't exactly prevent there from being a field. It's always been part of the game.


Jake Kohl
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: Jake] #281160
11/22/15 09:07 AM
11/22/15 09:07 AM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by Jake
]

Well, technically, a few guys come out of the woodwork to bad mouth the N17 who were clearly Tornado aficionados.


That's because the N17 is a garbage boat compared to the build quality of a Marstrom Tornado. I'm not even a T fan. Never owned one, never been on one.


I'm boatless.
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #281168
11/23/15 09:30 AM
11/23/15 09:30 AM
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Naples, FL
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But Karl, the original T boats were cold molded wood. You could bang one out in your shop on a slow weekend...


Jay

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281176
11/23/15 06:06 PM
11/23/15 06:06 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Different skill set than what I've got Jay. I'm sure I could do it if I was shown how, the ability and tools are there, just not the knowledge of how a boat is built.


I'm boatless.
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: Jake] #281178
11/23/15 10:32 PM
11/23/15 10:32 PM
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San Diego, CA
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Is this a case of not having the cake and eating it too?

The sailors (and other classes in a manner of thinking) voted to make the N17 the Olympic class. No Olympic boat he ever been inexpensive (think variances in established OD boats), and a new design out of the gate can only be worse.

Now ISAF is looking at a foiling option to make this the most exciting Olympic boat ever, and we're complaining?

Mike


Well, technically, a few guys come out of the woodwork to bad mouth the N17 who were clearly Tornado aficionados.

The upper end of the sport is definitely trending that way. I don't see any harm in the Olympics moving that direction. Cost has affected the field but it hasn't exactly prevent there from being a field. It's always been part of the game.



Uh... the most exciting Olympic boat ever, eh? Tornado was bigger, faster, more refined, more responsive. But now a "dead" class, as everyone likes to say.

People usually like to point out that equipment costs are marginal in the grand scheme of a Games campaign. Okay, that's fair. I will even give to you that a new Marstrom T ran $5-10k more than a new N17. The difference?

Marstrom hulls all from the same mould. The pro sailors didn't have to call up Marstrom and ask about what the current lay-up is like. They didn't have to go to the distributor warehouse and check out 10 sets of hulls before buying one. N17 sailors are doing just that. If you think you can call up your Nacra dealer, put the money down for a new N17, and you'll be sailing the same boat that Bora is sailing, you're dreaming, and you're wrong.

Where is the quality control? There is none. The boat hasn't seen an Olympiad yet and some teams are onto hull set numbers 3 and 4. Sarah just bought her third. Ask her what happened to the second.

What happened on the rare occasion a part broke on a Marstrom T? Do what you want, within the rules, and weigh in. You didn't have to buy a "Marstrom licensed" or "Tornado class licensed" replacement. This is called a monopoly. It benefits nobody other than Nacra. Let's talk about the teams breaking parts at regattas worldwide who were unable to obtain replacements in time to remain competitive because Nacra was behind on production, and you can only use "Nacra licensed" parts.

I'll put all my cards on the table. You guys can keep drinking the Kool-Aid and worshipping the "exciting" new N17. At least have some self-respect and hold yourselves to a higher standard and expect more from Nacra. Either license other manufacturers, or have some accountability for the quality of the product.

I will end with this - how many times in the history of the Tornado class did the class association have a split faction form their own "owner's" class association? Because it's already happening in the N17 class right now. Wake up.

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281186
11/24/15 10:29 AM
11/24/15 10:29 AM
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OK, you have 9 posts here ever in two years, haven't signed any, and they all amount to the same thing: Glorifying the Marstrom Tornado, vilifying the Nacra 17, and insulting anyone who disagrees with your position.

Well, at least you're consistent...

Mike

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281191
11/24/15 11:27 AM
11/24/15 11:27 AM
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Portland, Maine
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Quote
I will end with this - how many times in the history of the Tornado class did the class association have a split faction form their own "owner's" class association? Because it's already happening in the N17 class right now. Wake up.


I seem to remember quite the kerfluffle when the T went through the whole "to spin or not to spin" and "we love/hate carbon masts" phases. I could be wrong...

To say that the T was absent of drama is looking at it with pretty rose-colored glasses. Add to that the entire reason why we're in this current Olympic situation is because of the Tornado class' ineptness at liasoning/politicking with ISAF if I recall correctly.



Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281199
11/24/15 04:05 PM
11/24/15 04:05 PM
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Naples, FL
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Chupacabra...


Jay

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: brucat] #281200
11/24/15 06:40 PM
11/24/15 06:40 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Originally Posted by brucat
OK, you have 9 posts here ever in two years, haven't signed any, and they all amount to the same thing: Glorifying the Marstrom Tornado, vilifying the Nacra 17, and insulting anyone who disagrees with your position.

Well, at least you're consistent...

Mike


Hard to argue Marstrom's build quality though. Those boats would last multiple campaigns.


I'm boatless.
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281202
11/24/15 07:46 PM
11/24/15 07:46 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Well, who is left competing for the US shot at qualifying for Rio? Probably down to 3 teams or 6 people.... We should ask Sarah N and Matt W and then Mike E if they want the public support here. We(individual sailors, fleets, clubs and class associations could then opt to get behind their requests petitioning US Sailing Olympic to move for changes at ISAF.

I understand sailors not wanting to step forward and complain... but without competitors actually making the case... the critique becomes.. cranky old tornado sailors whining about the good ol days looking to grind that old ax from when we were done wrong.

Will they go on record about their experience?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #281203
11/24/15 07:50 PM
11/24/15 07:50 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by brucat
OK, you have 9 posts here ever in two years, haven't signed any, and they all amount to the same thing: Glorifying the Marstrom Tornado, vilifying the Nacra 17, and insulting anyone who disagrees with your position.

Well, at least you're consistent...

Mike


Hard to argue Marstrom's build quality though. Those boats would last multiple campaigns.


You certainly won't be catching me defending Nacra on that point.


Jake Kohl
Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #281204
11/24/15 07:51 PM
11/24/15 07:51 PM
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Lots of information from two guys who haven't been actively racing catamarans in a couple years.
Quick update from airport while en route home from catacup.
Bora: came to look at two boats in stock, took first one, picked up another a few months later without even asking to look at another boat. He wanted two boats to train and race in different places
Sarah and Mike: both took new boats without even asking to look at other boats.
I'd bet the 17 would be faster in quite a few conditions than the tornado.
The boat was never designed to foil, some slight modifications have been made to handle the loads sailors have been introducing.
If you guys want a comparison point, look at the evolution of the 49er, almost same evolution with multiple major hull mods, rig changes and etc. it's the nature of a high performance boat being pushed to the extreme extreme limit, something they almost no sailors on this forum can fathom, heck I can't even keep up with it.

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