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back to trapeze #282262
03/25/16 08:38 AM
03/25/16 08:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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Would any of the release technology of kiteboards be transferable to beachcats?

I know they still have harness hooks (which could catch on upturned cat parts), but some of the quick release functions might help?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282263
03/25/16 09:48 AM
03/25/16 09:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
S
srm Offline
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They are typically not fully releasing themselves from the kite. They pull a rip cord which blows one side of the kite lines and depowers the kite but they are still attached to the bar. Even when they do a full release from the control bar, it is the loop which releases from the control bar, but the hook still stays attached to their spreader bar, so not really applicable to beach cats. The problem in beach cat sailing is that you have a hook (more or less permanently) attached to your body which can snag the boat. Kite hooks are the same way. In fact, kite hooks are much worse because they are designed to NOT unhook.

The ball and socket systems are probably still the safest for cat sailing.

sm

Last edited by srm; 03/25/16 09:50 AM.
Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282265
03/25/16 12:35 PM
03/25/16 12:35 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Any idea why ball/socket systems haven't been mandated by now?

Mike

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282266
03/25/16 04:48 PM
03/25/16 04:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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because they change one issue into another?


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282267
03/25/16 05:39 PM
03/25/16 05:39 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Which is???

Mike

Re: back to trapeze [Re: brucat] #282268
03/26/16 03:55 AM
03/26/16 03:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Greenville SC
Originally Posted by brucat
Any idea why ball/socket systems haven't been mandated by now?

Mike


Because we are free to make our own choices regarding our own fate. We don't need more regulation on what some think is better for us.

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282270
03/26/16 12:51 PM
03/26/16 12:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
[Linked Image]

I use a kite quick release in my (elastic) safety leash which connects me during sailing to the cat. ( to a bar at the transom).
The hook is connected to my trapeze in front of my chest.

If I capsize, the leash can swing to the end of this bar, giving enough extra length if necessary. So I I'm not hung-up.

In any situation where it's necessary to free myself from the lease, I can do that quickly by shifting the yellow hose away from my chest.
The leash will then fall free from the hook.

Ofcourse I have thought of building this mechanism in my trapeze wire.
It can be done easily, but you have to shorten your wires accordingly.


Last edited by northsea junkie; 03/26/16 03:48 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: back to trapeze [Re: bacho] #282271
03/26/16 08:41 PM
03/26/16 08:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by brucat
Any idea why ball/socket systems haven't been mandated by now?

Mike


Because we are free to make our own choices regarding our own fate. We don't need more regulation on what some think is better for us.


For. The. Win.


I'm boatless.
Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282272
03/26/16 08:59 PM
03/26/16 08:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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mikekrantz  Offline
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Bach for president.

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282273
03/27/16 09:38 AM
03/27/16 09:38 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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OK, now that you've gotten that out of your system, let's put some actual thought into my question.

Enough people die to make this more than a trivial problem. And for all the bloviating bravato here, when you die during a regatta, it affects more than just your life.

However, my point actually isn't about regulations at all. If the ball/socket systems are so superior, we would be happy for them to be the standard.

Clearly, people aren't sold on this, and I'd like to know the technical pros and cons of each system.

Mike

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282274
03/27/16 01:33 PM
03/27/16 01:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
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srm Offline
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I agree. You need to know all of the issues with the existing systems before you can improve.

Not having used any of the other systems, I can only speak to the traditional hook design, but my take is-

Pros: Simple to use, can be engaged/disengaged with one hand without looking. Dependable. Proven design. Works with existing hardware on most boats. Inexpensive. Maintenance free and unaffected by salt, sand, dirt, etc.

Cons: Can occasionally come un-hooked if not under load. Harness hook can accidentally snag on fittings/lines/hardware. May be difficult to use when obstructed by a life jacket. Quick release systems, if included, may be difficult to operate and generally result in loss of the hook if they are used.

sm

Last edited by srm; 03/27/16 01:42 PM.
Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282276
03/27/16 07:02 PM
03/27/16 07:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 38
Lugoff, South Carolina
Mac McCallum Offline
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Lugoff, South Carolina
My wife got hung up on the downhaul line on our Viper in a capsize and actually pulled the boat over on top of herself. We were able to free her very quickly but extremely scary. I immediately bought 2 versions of the quick release to try out, she hated both. One had a tag on it that said it would not release under load. Never tried the ball type. We now both have the Zhik T2's. On those I believe you could pull the Velcro and free yourself in an emergency.


'09 Viper F16 USA102
A Cat USA 366

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282277
03/27/16 07:31 PM
03/27/16 07:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 381
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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SE MI / NE IN
I'm interested. I had a semi-close call at Charlotte Harbor a couple months ago.

Righted my boat in big breeze and it took off and neither the crew nor I could get up over the front beam. Decided to hand over hand Indiana Jones style under the boat to the back to get ahold of the tiller and steer the boat into the wind.

Great idea until I snagged the righting line with my hook. Pressure from the water / boat speed had me on there pretty good. I remember thinking - oh sh!t this could go bad. Kept my composure and was able to release myself after a couple minutes of dragging. Seemed like forever.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: back to trapeze [Re: rehmbo] #282278
03/28/16 02:58 AM
03/28/16 02:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Like I said before in my previous post(page 1), you can try to build in a kite safety release.
You just simply buy a socalled leash line (tether) and dismount with a little DIY the actual release mechanism from the leash line itself.

After that, with the same DIY, you mount a shakle on the free end and connect the mechanism to whatever line or wire you want.

After a number of accidents in the early beginning of the kitesport, manufacturers were pressed with their nose on the fact that there were real dangers in kiting.
So they searched for and invented several quick-release mechanisms. And in learning kiting its the first thing you learn to handle.

Surprisingly this isn't done in catsailing. On this forum I have spoken a lot of the risks and the measures which you can take. I always had the feeling that this was a bit in vain.

Hope that the original question from Jay in this thread gets a serious follow-up.

P.S.
Here's the design of a controllable release mechanism which I added for showing the basic principle. (I'm not sure if this build-in adjustment of the necessary handforce works though):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khqggxvv2ug



Last edited by northsea junkie; 03/28/16 02:59 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: back to trapeze [Re: northsea junkie] #282280
03/28/16 05:30 AM
03/28/16 05:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
There are safety concerns with a release mechanism that could come undone unexpectedly too. I've owned several different styles of release mechanisms and was never happy with their real-world operation.

I've had the type that retains the hook with a ball detent system where you can press a button and release the hook from the harness. I never looked very deep into it but I'm guessing that there were some tolerance issues with the one I have but it simply won't release under load (ball detent systems are very sensitive to the shape and depth tolerance of the ball sockets). I've also had systems where the bar itself has a quick release mechanism and I probably like those the best...but they're prone to come undone if that snag on something - and that sucks too.

IMHO, the most unobtrusive solution is to replace the wire trapeze systems with high modulus line and keep a rescue hook knife VERY accessible (mounted inside or on your PFD). We do this for distance races. It will not help if your hook gets caught on something like a shroud but it is an improvement.


Jake Kohl
Re: back to trapeze [Re: Jake] #282282
03/28/16 07:58 AM
03/28/16 07:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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I would agree with the "let's not mandate" thoughts EXCEPT that it seems every time someone gets hurt (after deciding they didn't want to use a particular safety item), there are injury/wrongful death lawsuits slung at the organizers, other competitors, etc.

So until that litigation thing stops, I think there is a need to shield organizers and others from litigation by setting some minimum safety standards.

As to the hook thing, I'm interested more in preventing the hook tangle-ups on things other than the harness line, as it seems most of the injuries/deaths occur when the hook snags other things on the boat.

So if we can't change the "hook" design, could we change its location from the harness to the trapeze line itself?

Not that I want a giant fish hook swinging around (or four, in the case of double trap lines), but perhaps an inverted T arrangement ( or perhaps a stronger version of the T-handle?) on the trap line that you could loop your seat harness around. The loop having one of those kitesail release mechanisms integrated into it?

So if you had to release the harness from the trapeze line, pulling the release would uncouple and you'd just have strings dangling from your harness bar (rather than a hook or loop)?


Jay

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282287
03/28/16 09:15 AM
03/28/16 09:15 AM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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What are the actual pros/cons of the ball/socket systems?

There have been several designs/brands over the decades, I know one guy who still uses (and swears by) the old Sail Safe system. At least, I think that was the name. There's also the Bethwaite, and now this:

http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/allen-brothers/product-29493-450885.html

Again, what is the downside of these? And, do those downsides outweigh the risk of our current hooks?

Mike

Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282288
03/28/16 10:47 AM
03/28/16 10:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
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maui
Jake's comment was good. Carry a sharp knife. Maybe you could cut your way thru the tramp if you are trapped under it.
I use kite string for trap lines, but for day sailing. No handles, or adjustment tackle. They seem to handle some abrasion, but longevity may be a problem.

Re: back to trapeze [Re: brucat] #282289
03/28/16 10:51 AM
03/28/16 10:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
What are the actual pros/cons of the ball/socket systems?

There have been several designs/brands over the decades, I know one guy who still uses (and swears by) the old Sail Safe system. At least, I think that was the name. There's also the Bethwaite, and now this:

http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/allen-brothers/product-29493-450885.html

Again, what is the downside of these? And, do those downsides outweigh the risk of our current hooks?

Mike


That thing has not been value engineered! It probably costs $350 each set.

I know some guys that had the ball/socket stuff but they're all back to hooks and rings now. I seem to recall someone explaining that the socket on the harness was just a little tricky to find sometimes. When compared to a ring and hook system, the hook protrudes past all the gear you might be wearing and is pretty easy to locate.


Jake Kohl
Re: back to trapeze [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282294
03/28/16 02:13 PM
03/28/16 02:13 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Like anything else, quantity will eventually affect price, and/or competition will force the issue.

It is a safety item, and if this truly solves the problem, it would be hard to argue that the price is too high.

Ease of hookup (and conversely, ease of unplanned swimming) would be a valid concern, but other than hearsay, are these real issues with these designs? Are there conditions that are more likely to separate the ball from the socket (rough water, etc.)?

Again, the ball system from the 80s/90s seems to have worked just fine.

Mike

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