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Catsailor Blog Spam #282357
04/06/16 11:28 AM
04/06/16 11:28 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Hi Rick, I received an unexpected, unsolicited email from this site's blog.

I dislike spam (unsolicited email) and tried to Opt-out. I was shocked to see that your opt-out contains this message "Before you unsubscribe, PLEASE READ this NOTICE:
By unsubscribing you will removed from BOTH our Catsailor.com Forum AND the OnlineMarineStore Blog. You will no longer have access to your past forum posts and will no longer receive our blog or newsletter emails. This cannot be undone.".

As a web marketer (of 19 years) I have to tell you this is a poor practice. You risk angering your public (us) and losing your forum and site members (who are the lifeblood of your site).

If this was just about any other forum i am a part of ... I would simply unsubscribe and never return.

As an email developer - this is also a matter of legality... It is a arguably an illegal Can-Spam infraction under the "harvesting of emails" (since we have no business relationship, I have not opted-in, and you have offered a free service (this forum) and have harvested the emails to send out a commercial email.

I hope you will reconsider your practice and offer a double opt-in (best practice) to anyone who wishes to receive your emails, or at the least an opt-out that does not have additional repercussions.



FYI
What are the penalties for violating the CAN-SPAM Act?
A. Each separate email in violation of the law is subject to penalties of up to $16,000, and more than one
person may be held responsible for violations. For example, both the company whose product is promoted
in the message and the company that originated the message may be legally responsible. Email that makes
misleading claims about products or services also may be subject to laws outlawing deceptive advertising,
like Section 5 of the FTC Act. The CAN-SPAM Act has certain aggravated violations that may give rise
to additional fines. The law provides for criminal penalties – including imprisonment – for:
• accessing someone else’s computer to send spam without permission,
• using false information to register for multiple email accounts or domain names,
• relaying or retransmitting multiple spam messages through a computer to mislead others about the
origin of the message,
harvesting email addresses or generating them through a dictionary attack (the practice of sending
email to addresses made up of random letters and numbers in the hope of reaching valid ones), and
• taking advantage of open relays or open proxies without permission.

- https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/do...n-spam-act-compliance-guide-business.pdf

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282358
04/06/16 01:11 PM
04/06/16 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Totally agree.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282361
04/07/16 03:12 AM
04/07/16 03:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
I agree that it's not ideal but the email also says (below the Unsubcribe text) that you can disable these email within your Profile settings.
There's a button you can click which disables "community emails" or something like that.

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282365
04/07/16 07:11 PM
04/07/16 07:11 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



I would be fine with that.

I looked before, and just looked again in my profile, preferences, and subscriptions.

I saw no way to opt out of emails without penalty of account closure.

Rick? is there a way to change this preference?


Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282372
04/08/16 12:32 PM
04/08/16 12:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
I do not understand your getting upset by two short emails a month as small payment for maintaining this Forum for over almost two decades. You all have had your run of this Forum with absolutely nothing asked of you, except use it. Is that too much to ask?

And why would you label them SPAM?

The emails are informative newsletters, with general boating information some of which has been compiled from Chapman’s Book of Piloting and Seamanship and Annapolis Book of Seamanship.

The tactics and racing sections are from over 20 years of articles I have written in a column on tactics called “What If...?” This has been a very popular column with abundant material I have gleaned from over 20 years of teaching seminars with over 50 World Class Guest Experts spilling their guts out. When they spoke it went in one ear, and I plugged the other one.

To add a little spice I have also added the Best of Captain Noah Tall, which many consider a real hoot, and great spoof on advice columns.

Yes, interlaced are a few ads. This site and this Forum have no visible means of support, except for our store, which is not doing all that well. It needs to do well in order for this site and this Forum to survive. Times are tough and I have needed to reach out to Forum Members to let them know our store even EXISTS. Many don’t. I will make that MOST DON”T.

So, Please be a little understanding.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282373
04/08/16 01:02 PM
04/08/16 01:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
Click on:
1-My Stuff
2-Edit Profile (not Preferences)
3- Third item down says
"From time to time we send out emails regarding this community.
Do you wish to receive these emails?
No Yes "

But this will only work if Rick uses this forum module to generate his address list. If he harvests his entire list and emails/spams manually then this might not save you.

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: RickWhite] #282376
04/09/16 12:08 AM
04/09/16 12:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
+1, Rick

You have my full understanding.

I've said this once before on this forum: I'm more than willing to pay an annual membershipsfee.

Catsailing costs money and most of us are not "poor" people.
So a few bugs for the hours of talking and socializing with like-minded sailors is a futility.

P.S. Bob, stop nagging about some emails. When you buy something on internet, you also get unwanted emails as a result of that.
The whole internet floates financially on advertizing.



Last edited by northsea junkie; 04/09/16 02:00 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282377
04/09/16 07:39 AM
04/09/16 07:39 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M




Quote
"And why would you label them SPAM?"
Spam = unsolicited email - I did not request, nor opt-in.


I wouldn't care at all if you had an opt out option that did not remove me from the forum community.

Quote
I do not understand your getting upset by two short emails a month as small payment for maintaining this Forum for over almost two decades. You all have had your run of this Forum with absolutely nothing asked of you, except use it. Is that too much to ask?"

Your statements contradict each other
a. Nothing asked in return except use it (the forum)
b. Use it and be required to accept spam 26 times a year
Furthermore, our posts are used in your commercial newsletter. I have seen my posts in your newsletter. We are (unpaid) contributors to your commercial print newsletter, so there IS something "Asked in return".

I am not upset, I am flooded with SPAM every day. About 40 every day. I wish to reduce this as much as possible.

I am telling you this Unsubscribe (with penalty) and be removed from the community is not a "best practice" and as a matter of fact it is a good way to upset and lose subscribers, and potential customers.

Quote
Bob, stop nagging about some emails. When you buy something on internet, you also get unwanted emails as a result of that.
The whole internet floates financially on advertizing.

Who's Bob?
Thanks for your input. When you buy a product you have a business relationship with that vendor. That gives the vender a business relationship and is considered a "somewhat" acceptable reason to send requested spam. The business is also required to provide a working opt-out of any future spam.

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282378
04/09/16 08:19 AM
04/09/16 08:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by MN3

Who's Bob?


Well you.
As I remember me, you're first name was Robbert, isn't it?


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282380
04/09/16 12:44 PM
04/09/16 12:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
S
srm Offline
enthusiast
srm  Offline
enthusiast
S

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
Originally Posted by MN3

I wouldn't care at all if you had an opt out option that did not remove me from the forum community.


Totally agree. These emails are SPAM and I personally find them to be annoying. Just give people the option to opt-out.

sm

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282381
04/09/16 02:25 PM
04/09/16 02:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
Redtwin Offline
addict
Redtwin  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 473
Panama City, Florida
I use Outlook for my mail and simply create a rule that moves unwanted emails to the Deleted Items folder. I'm sure other programs have the same option. Just create a rule and be done with it.


Rob V. Nacra 5.2 Panama City
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: Redtwin] #282382
04/10/16 05:16 AM
04/10/16 05:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
I use MailWasherPro, and can teach it what I don't want. All the bad stuff is in red background, the good stuff is in green, and the unknown in white.
The good thing all the bad emails are deleted from the server, not your computer.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282383
04/10/16 08:10 AM
04/10/16 08:10 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



I have edited my profile/ preferences to not receive "emails regarding this community"

If i receive another one I will cancel my account and all my posts (as your optout's only option).

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282384
04/10/16 09:42 AM
04/10/16 09:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Yes, I hope that works. I hope so.
However, I don't understand why it bothers you so much that I make an attempt at making some money to pay for this site and Forum.
An email every two weeks??? And you say you get 40 per day.
Funny.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282385
04/10/16 12:56 PM
04/10/16 12:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by MN3
I have edited my profile/ preferences to not receive "emails regarding this community"

If i receive another one I will cancel my account and all my posts (as your optout's only option).


Bob, obviously you are a layman with regard to legal matters.

This forum is not a business with a business-like connection to the members who write posts.
No, it is a service provided by Catamaran Sailor shop run by Rick. The reason why he provides this free service is obvious.
Infact so obvious that it can be considered as common knowledge with each writing member. Especially if the membership is more than 10 years.
The same applies for the fact that everybody understands that, though this service is free, it has to be paid for by Ricks shop.

So, there's no misleading, no false expectation between both sites of the relationship!


This all makes your appeal on the CAN_SPAM Act invalid (to be honest its a laugh). There is no Judge in the U.S. that will consider the action of Rick as an infraction on this Act.

Don't be a fool.



ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: RickWhite] #282390
04/11/16 06:17 AM
04/11/16 06:17 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



It doesn't bother me AT ALL that you try to make money from your site/store/newsletter just the opposite. I hope you do very well on it.

What bothers me is that there didn't seem to be a way to opt out of unrequested emails (from a legitimate website/store) without the penalty of having my account and almost 4000 posts removed.

Originally Posted by RickWhite
Yes, I hope that works. I hope so.
However, I don't understand why it bothers you so much that I make an attempt at making some money to pay for this site and Forum.
An email every two weeks??? And you say you get 40 per day.
Funny.
Rick

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: northsea junkie] #282391
04/11/16 06:39 AM
04/11/16 06:39 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



1. My name is not Bob. - you obviously do not know me

2. I seriously doubt I could be considered a Layman (with legal or Can-Spam matters). I grew up and worked in a family owned law firm and was a pre-law student until I decided it wasn't for me.
I have been a professional web marketer for 19 years now. My current employer sends out over 600,000,000 (yes 2/3rds of a billion) per year (all opt-ins).

3.
Quote
"This forum is not a business with a business-like connection to the members who write posts"
- This forum is not in question. The email that was sent contains advertising for goods and services. That makes it a commercial email that falls under the jurisdiction of the Can-Spam Act. I was not talking about suing Rick ... I was giving him a heads up that his newsletter has some questionable practices (harvesting emails from his "free" site, not clearly marking the email as advertising (which it contains), not offering a opt-out that works within 10 days.

I was also telling Rick that his practice of removing his members from the forum if they opt-out is a poor practice that will cannibalize his own membership...

you may want to read up on the laws so you accurately can speak about them before you start telling others what a US judge will do (PS it's the FTC, not a judge that will dispense any fines over a can-spam infraction....unless also criminally prosecuted) - https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/can-spam-act-compliance-guide-business


Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Originally Posted by MN3
I have edited my profile/ preferences to not receive "emails regarding this community"

If i receive another one I will cancel my account and all my posts (as your optout's only option).


Bob, obviously you are a layman with regard to legal matters.

This forum is not a business with a business-like connection to the members who write posts.
No, it is a service provided by Catamaran Sailor shop run by Rick. The reason why he provides this free service is obvious.
Infact so obvious that it can be considered as common knowledge with each writing member. Especially if the membership is more than 10 years.
The same applies for the fact that everybody understands that, though this service is free, it has to be paid for by Ricks shop.

So, there's no misleading, no false expectation between both sites of the relationship!


This all makes your appeal on the CAN_SPAM Act invalid (to be honest its a laugh). There is no Judge in the U.S. that will consider the action of Rick as an infraction on this Act.

Don't be a fool.


Last edited by MN3; 04/11/16 07:18 AM.
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: ] #282393
04/11/16 08:43 AM
04/11/16 08:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by MN3
1. My name is not Bob. - you obviously do not know me

2. I seriously doubt I could be considered a Layman (with legal or Can-Spam matters). I grew up and worked in a family owned law firm and was a pre-law student until I decided it wasn't for me.


Okay Andrew, your decision to stop a law-study is now clear. And ofcourse I'm not mocking you for that!

I respect your family background and your drive now to chase after a legal issue which you think you have.
Still I keep saying that you make a big mistake in doing so:

In a civilized society there is law and there are events and circumstances which need regulation by the law.
Applying the law is always done by judges, special commitees, governmental offices, etc. If it was simple and easy to apply the law, there was no need for that judment level.

So you make the mistake of taking some Act for spam and, with that text in your hand, just reason that in our case Rick is doing something wrong. If you had finished your law-study you should have learned that this one-to-one reasoning is not what applying law is.
As I explained in my previous post there are obvious and resonable circumstances in Rick's case that protect him against "prosecution".

In your world there would be no lawyers!

Last edited by northsea junkie; 04/11/16 08:49 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: northsea junkie] #282394
04/11/16 10:21 AM
04/11/16 10:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
which begs the question... would you still frequent the website if it were behind a pay-wall?

Does the user agreement include the ability to use information posted on this web for the hard-copy issue and/or other purposes? Is any of this "content" protected in some way?

As you mentioned earlier, this is the model the internet survives on. While I may or may not agree, I have come to accept the inevitable to a certain extent.

I guess my more pertinent question is why Rick's web-store isn't performing as expected. I doubt it is due to pricing. Is the format out-dated? Is it being marketed to the wrong demographics?

It is well beyond my skill set (I fell off the bus with ENIAC), but you social media gurus could possibly offer a world of help to keep this the flagship site it hopes to be.

I typed this on a punch-card to upload...



Jay

Re: Catsailor Blog Spam [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282395
04/11/16 11:13 AM
04/11/16 11:13 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M




Quote
"Does the user agreement include the ability to use information posted on this web for the hard-copy issue and/or other purposes? Is any of this "content" protected in some way?"
I was a bit surprised to see this, but there is no user agreement upon sign up ... only a few rules.
(I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn once).... this is a public site, I would GUESS that anything posted here could be re-produced and feely disseminated. That doesn't mean that a lawsuit couldn't happen, and someone could make a claim that they contributed to the publication of a (for PAY) print newsletter and were entitled to some of the money collected. Not sure that case would have any legs to stand on... but isn't the point. Legal fees would be required to defend against that type of lawsuit. That is why most sites have lengthy disclaimers that would contain verbiage to avoid sed actionable items


Quote
It is well beyond my skill set (I fell off the bus with ENIAC), but you social media gurus could possibly offer a world of help to keep this the flagship site it hopes to be.

If asked by Rick, I would be glad to give my opinion and advice

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