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Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282468
04/18/16 08:14 AM
04/18/16 08:14 AM
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Lost in Translation Offline
journeyman
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Timbo, normally we let the boards all the way forward for upwind and then pull them back before bearing away at the top mark to go downwind. You pull them back as much as needed and this can be done from the wire with most boats, just like adjusting your mast rotation. The rake systems generally have tight bungies that retract the deck sliders forward when the rake adjuster line is released.

The eXploders have come delivered with a system that allows adjustment of both boards from either side with a single line. The DNAs have been re-rigged in the US by their owners for this system too and I would guess the F1 has it built in.

In lighter air you need more lift and pull the boards back farther. In heavier winds, you are going faster and so the boards produce enough lift with a smaller adjustment. If you are sailing downwind and the boat isn't foiling, you can step back and help get lift off.

As boats begin to foil upwind, you may not have to adjust the boards at all. I don't know.

At first it seemed like the boats were getting more complicated to sail but over time we are finding they are getting simpler than the older ones. My process before the top mark is to pull the boards back and ease the rotator from the wire. So pull one line a foot or so and ease another the same and just play the mainsheet. Eventually I ease the traveler too. That is all you do until you reach the bottom mark. No need to adjust outhaul or raise boards or even cunningham now though it can be nice to ease the cunningham if I need power.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Lost in Translation] #282470
04/18/16 08:19 AM
04/18/16 08:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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well, that is a relief to know that smart folk are working out simple solutions...

One of you will undoubtedly come up with a single control that switches from upwind mode settings to downwind mode settings (both pre-set by user based on conditions). Like a friggin lever with "UP" and "DOWN"

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 04/18/16 08:20 AM.

Jay

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Lost in Translation] #282482
04/21/16 06:26 AM
04/21/16 06:26 AM
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Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by Lost in Translation
Timbo, normally we let the boards all the way forward for upwind and then pull them back before bearing away at the top mark to go downwind. You pull them back as much as needed and this can be done from the wire with most boats, just like adjusting your mast rotation. The rake systems generally have tight bungies that retract the deck sliders forward when the rake adjuster line is released.

The eXploders have come delivered with a system that allows adjustment of both boards from either side with a single line. The DNAs have been re-rigged in the US by their owners for this system too and I would guess the F1 has it built in.

In lighter air you need more lift and pull the boards back farther. In heavier winds, you are going faster and so the boards produce enough lift with a smaller adjustment. If you are sailing downwind and the boat isn't foiling, you can step back and help get lift off.

As boats begin to foil upwind, you may not have to adjust the boards at all. I don't know.

At first it seemed like the boats were getting more complicated to sail but over time we are finding they are getting simpler than the older ones. My process before the top mark is to pull the boards back and ease the rotator from the wire. So pull one line a foot or so and ease another the same and just play the mainsheet. Eventually I ease the traveler too. That is all you do until you reach the bottom mark. No need to adjust outhaul or raise boards or even cunningham now though it can be nice to ease the cunningham if I need power.


Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like it's pretty much one setting for upwind, one for downwind, and you don't have to play with it too much while you are out on the wire, I'm guessing you do have to move your weight around, forward and back, to fine tune the ride height once up out of the water? And what happens in bigger waves or chop that's high enough to hit the front beam? Do you go up and over it, or plow through it? So both dagger boards stay full down all the time too, is that correct? And the adjustment is only a few inches between forward and back setting?

What happens if you pick up a weed or a trash bag on the bottom of the foil?


Blade F16
#777
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Timbo] #282483
04/21/16 07:13 AM
04/21/16 07:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Tell you what, Timbo... Buy one and let us know smile

Or (better) help out one of their regattas (mark boat) and watch the hotshots make it look super easy


Jay

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Timbo] #282486
04/21/16 07:52 AM
04/21/16 07:52 AM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Timbo, they're getting more of a four pointed lift out of both boards and rudders and are shifting toward a system where they use both daggerboards instead of raising one on each tack/gybe. The stability is increasing as a result. It's not totally unlike the lift distribution on a typical airplane but the wings on the rudders (aka, horizontal stab) are carrying more of the balancing load than they used to and it's getting closer to sitting on four legs instead of balancing on the daggerboards with the rudders providing attitude trim.

The issue with USED to be that the boat would porpoise badly trying to get to stable flight if they tried to more evenly distribute the lifting force between the boards and rudders (early Team New Zealand / Pete Melvin testing) but it looks like they've found a happy medium on the A-cat that results in pretty good stability and without the need to constantly adjust stuff. This may be where the foiling catamaran has an advantage over a foiling monohull (like a moth).


Jake Kohl
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282490
04/21/16 08:47 AM
04/21/16 08:47 AM
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Lost in Translation Offline
journeyman
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well said, Jake. I didn't know about how they proportion the lift. Interesting.

Yes, Timbo, the boards stay down all the time. This is great because it keeps the boat like a normal racing catamaran with good tacking and gybing. I do move my weight around a little to get lift off or fine tune the flight attitude but it is pretty subtle.

When you are sailing 12 to 18 inches above the water, the waves really aren't a factor like they used to be. You can surf down the longer ones still on foils and the bows will sometimes cut into the back of a wave but generally pretty impossible to stick the main beam unless you sail in bigger conditions than I'd ever want to sail in.

In Miami we had some pretty big chop this year at Bacardi Cup that would hit the main beam on occasion upwind. Downwind that chop and the big gusts associated with it were a little unnerving to foil in, so I healed the boat up and skimmed along instead. The boat won't foil when it is not flat and this is handy for coming in from the wire for jibes too. In skimming mode the boat just kind of touches backs of waves but doesn't bury like it normally would. Not as fast but still quick. In fact, on one race I was getting tired and tried sitting in downwind without the boards back to be more conservative. The boat actually was harder to sail because it kept stuffing waves and getting water over the main beam. I was surprised but I guess the manufacturers and foiling advocates who said lifting boards could actually make the boat easier to sail were right.

It's amazing how little change in board rake is required to make them foil and how much your body weight changes things too. The boards move back a max of 2 inches or so. I usually pull them back half way or a little more light air. If I don't foil, then I go back to the back foot strap and just stay in that one rather than the forward one and that usually does the trick.

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282493
04/21/16 06:58 PM
04/21/16 06:58 PM
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Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Tell you what, Timbo... Buy one and let us know smile

Or (better) help out one of their regattas (mark boat) and watch the hotshots make it look super easy


Yeah, you first! I would like to see some at a regatta, when/where's their next big one?


Blade F16
#777
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Timbo] #282500
04/24/16 12:50 PM
04/24/16 12:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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A fellow a-cat sailor had an idea that I twisted around a little. Suppose the non-full-foiling type of a-cat is the LR (Low rider) fleet. Maybe NF fleet (not foiling)? That's generic enough and moderately sensible - or maybe something else along those lines.


Jake Kohl
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282503
04/25/16 07:58 AM
04/25/16 07:58 AM
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Naples, FL
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Yeah, baby... low riders rule

[Linked Image]


Jay

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282507
04/25/16 08:28 AM
04/25/16 08:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 69
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Lost in Translation Offline
journeyman
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I am good with low-rider. You like it better, Jake? Did the other A sailor as well?

Those low-riders are still fast. Ben Hall got 3rd overall on his DNA C board boat (missing what would have been a three way tie with two foilers for first by one point ) last weekend in Panama City with 24 boats. He was very fast downwind in light air and made good calls.

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Lost in Translation] #282512
04/25/16 11:08 AM
04/25/16 11:08 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lost in Translation
I am good with low-rider. You like it better, Jake? Did the other A sailor as well?

Those low-riders are still fast. Ben Hall got 3rd overall on his DNA C board boat (missing what would have been a three way tie with two foilers for first by one point ) last weekend in Panama City with 24 boats. He was very fast downwind in light air and made good calls.


I don't care that much for the phrase "low rider" but "LR Fleet" has a ring to it. It makes sense and using the acronym will see everyone's recollection of what it stands for gradually fade at about the same time it simply transitions to being "what that fleet is called".

I can't find anything that conflicts with it in the sport other than "Lesbian Robot".



edit:
Wait, crap...this was in the back of my mind and I finally placed it. Ian / John Lindal's boat, the LR3 (4, 5, etc) is a bit of a conflict with that. Curses.



Jake Kohl
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282515
04/25/16 03:17 PM
04/25/16 03:17 PM
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Lost in Translation Offline
journeyman
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exactly! He has the LR line up to LR-6 now.


Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282517
04/25/16 03:39 PM
04/25/16 03:39 PM
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mikekrantz Offline
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That's also the term for a non-foiling moth fleet - low riders...

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: mikekrantz] #282518
04/25/16 04:11 PM
04/25/16 04:11 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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I suppose we could still go with it. I'm looking forward to rolling into the yacht club with THIS playing loud.


Jake Kohl
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282519
04/25/16 05:53 PM
04/25/16 05:53 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
I'm looking forward to rolling into the yacht club with THIS playing loud.

Does that mean that the foilers will be playing Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride"?

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282523
04/26/16 05:40 AM
04/26/16 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
I suppose we could still go with it. I'm looking forward to rolling into the yacht club with THIS playing loud.


Totally, just not sure how you lay back and hang your elbow over the hull while you bounce up and down...


Jay

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: waterbug_wpb] #282524
04/26/16 06:55 AM
04/26/16 06:55 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
I suppose we could still go with it. I'm looking forward to rolling into the yacht club with THIS playing loud.


Totally, just not sure how you lay back and hang your elbow over the hull while you bounce up and down...


Technically speaking, I don't "roll into the yacht club" on my boat.


Jake Kohl
Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282525
04/26/16 08:52 AM
04/26/16 08:52 AM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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to the starting area...


Jay

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: Jake] #282528
04/26/16 09:40 AM
04/26/16 09:40 AM
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brucat Offline
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LR had meaning in the sport for at least 15 years as Luna Rossa, did it not?

Maybe you can get the RC to play your theme song from the signal boat from your warning to prep. That could be fun.

Mike

Re: The new DNA F1 A-cat [Re: brucat] #282529
04/26/16 10:42 AM
04/26/16 10:42 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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There are apparently a few conflicts with LR but the more I think about it, conflicts with a two letter designation are going to happen everywhere. I'm starting to think that as long as it doesn't accidently interpret into something offensive, it's good. I vote let's go with "LR fleet".

- As Mike pointed out it is consistent with what the Moth's naming for the full foiling / not full foiling fleets.

- It passes a logic test...the displacement/semi foiling a-cats do ride lower in the water than the full foiling boats

- I can't think of any way that anyone would consider it derogatory (particularly the acronym).

- "LR" is pretty bland from an age and value perspective so it shouldn't shape perception in an unfavorable way.



Jake Kohl
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