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Lots of F18s' For Sale #284779
01/07/17 10:10 AM
01/07/17 10:10 AM
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Ventucky Red Offline OP
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Seeing a lot F18 class boats for sale... is this a dying fleet or is it time for many to upgrade to newer boats...?




-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284802
01/08/17 05:15 PM
01/08/17 05:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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About as dead as this website

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284803
01/08/17 06:01 PM
01/08/17 06:01 PM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I think all of sailing seems to have taken a massive hit the last few years. More so than the previous massive hits.


I'm boatless.
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284809
01/08/17 09:36 PM
01/08/17 09:36 PM
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garda Offline
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Oh come on Karl, we were promised that when the AC went to cats, everyone would turn to multis and the whole sport would boom. Surely Russell, Melvin and all the Kool-Aid vendors were telling us the truth!

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284823
01/09/17 08:43 AM
01/09/17 08:43 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Seeing a lot F18 class boats for sale... is this a dying fleet or is it time for many to upgrade to newer boats...?


Where are the numbers headed (weekend regattas, nationals)? That would be your best guide.

Mike

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284826
01/09/17 11:29 AM
01/09/17 11:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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Considering the number of boats, there really aren't that many for sale. Maybe 4-6 boats? Off the top of my head there are probably 80-90 active racing boats in the U.S. more if you count the guys that show up to one regatta a year.
The only boats for sale are used C2s and there seems to be little demand for them as the same guys have been trying to sell them for years... I can't find any used Nacra Infusions MKIIs and every one that has come for sale has sold quickly.
In the last year I've sold around 10 new Nacra Infusions. Considering the small market that's pretty good! The used ones have gone to people that are going to race them and they've gone for 15K+. I've got people begging me to find good used ones in the 13-16K ballpark. But used C2's for 10-12K aren't moving, I can tell you that Nacra has more recognition among recreational sailors, but I don't know why racing sailors are more dedicated to the Infusion than the C2. They are both competitive boats.
In California, Michigan, and Wisconsin the class is doing great.
The Northeast (which was the biggest fleet) has just as many boats as ever, we're just having a harder time getting them to regattas so we are building a central sailing venue in Newport, RI where about 12 teams have said they will keep their boats in the area to do weeknight racing.
This model can be proven in other areas where the class is doing well too, it's just much easier to roll down and go sailing and go home without having to trailer/rig/sail/de-rig/trailer.
I don't think Nationals are a great indication of how the class is doing. The class is made up of weekend warriors, asking them to travel cross country, take vacation time and serious racing is becoming harder and harder. Sure we took a dip the last few years in Nationals, but the fleets that are growing are not near where our Nationals venues have been.
Next year we are going to SoCal for Nationals, largely because the class is growing there. I am confident we will have 40-50 boats for this.
The next year we have F18 Worlds in Sarasota... I am confident we will have 100 boats for this. Like Long Beach in 2012 where we had 120!
The following year the Nationals will be in Michigan which collectively between CRAM and CRAW there are over 30 boats.
Australia is seeing it's biggest F18 Nationals ever this year.
2015 Worlds had 170 boats.
2016 Worlds in Argentina just didn't work out with getting boats there.
Overall the class is doing great. Anyone who says differently is clearly out of touch.
You can look at the interest in foiling boats, and the F18 class has talked about that. But I can tell you at this time foiling is not for the majority amateur sailing crowd. I have little to no interest in racing a highly competitive foiling catamaran and I've done my share of foiling and racing it in long distance.

Bach, I've heard you say the class is dead on numerous forums... you've been to maybe one nationals years ago? But I'm not even sure if you've been to one. And besides that have you sailed any F18 regattas? It's a shame that the Mid-Atlantic and Carolinas doesn't have an active class, but like all sailboats classes, there are going to be areas that we don't have racing. Of active sailors, I know there are 4 in NJ, 3 in Maryland, 1 in the Outerbanks, 1 in Virginia and a handful of others scattered about that I don't know about. If someone put together a really appealing regatta down there I'm sure we could get a decent fleet. I think you have a great spirit and following, rather than being negative about it, why don't you capitalize on the potential? I know the A Class has some scattered sailors through your region, but besides that not much else is successful either. Maybe getting all the boats together for more regional portsmouth regattas will pull boats out of the woodwork and the fleets people are interested in will survive.

-Todd Riccardi
USF18 President
Nacra North America

Last edited by wildtsail7; 01/09/17 11:41 AM.
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284828
01/09/17 12:26 PM
01/09/17 12:26 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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If someone is looking for a Mk. 2 Infusion, mine may be available. Not getting out of the class, just flipping boats in prep for 2018 worlds, though this platform is 100% capable of winning a worlds.

On the race front, what Todd is saying is very true, its a lot of effort to travel sail with these boats! Worth it to attend a few regattas in the Northeast though, one of the most competitive fleets around.

I'm putting together the 3rd annual John McLaughlin Memorial Regatta, June 24th and 25th. This race will be run from West River Sailing Club to Cove Point Beach, 35 miles south, overnight stop and return the next day. Ground crew will be available to assist with moving beach wheels. LeMans start on the beach the next day, but we'll do it in the water to keep the bottoms shiny smile My boat will likely be available for a low cost charter (cover insurance) for the event.

Last edited by samc99us; 01/09/17 12:27 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284838
01/09/17 06:21 PM
01/09/17 06:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 380
SE MI / NE IN
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To the original question, I think the class is doing well overall, but it seems there is some significant regional variation.

Here in Michigan, I recently compiled our CRAM numbers for the last 5 years and we are seeing a positive trend in regatta attendance for F18s. We support multiple classes, and the biggest growth over the last 5 years has definitely been our H16 class. It's not the hard-core class legal racing guys, but a bunch of fun people that are getting their feet wet and having a blast. This fall, two of those upgraded to Tigers and will be racing with the F18 fleet next year. If we get the foundation right, the rest will take care of itself...

I'm also a member at CSYC on Lake St. Clair and we are up to 8 F18s (up from 3 four years ago). 4 of those boats are new to the class within the last 3 years. They are set up and ready to sail for the Wed night and Sunday AM summer series. We've worked hard to increase the confidence and skill level of the new guys and held several small 1-day and 2-day sessions where the new guys skipper and the more experience guys crew. We also brought Robbie and Jill up last July to help a 1/2 dozen boats improve their game.

All said, I think we now have 19 F18's that are raced on a semi-regular basis in Michigan. Definitely a high-water mark for us.

I've also been disappointed with participation in the winter regattas in Florida. Last year I made a big financial commitment to sail Tradewinds and Charlotte Harbor. We got hit with a double-whammy of bad conditions and small numbers at Tradewinds, and only 3 boats bothered to show up to Charlotte Harbor. Two were from more than 1000 miles away. That was a real disappointment and I really hope it was a temporary aberration. Work prevented participation in next week's BiB regatta in Tampa, but I'll be there for the CHR again in early February.

Anyway, I'm bullish on the F18 and sailing in general. I love my C2 and have zero desire to trade it in at this point.


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284850
01/10/17 01:11 PM
01/10/17 01:11 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Great news Jeff! I agree the turnout in Florida has been a bit weak on the F18 front, I suspect next year will be better with the upcoming Worlds-if the 505 fleet is anything to take ques from, the year leading up to worlds has high turnout.

Do you have any tips for hooking new sailors to the class and keeping them engaged? I've heard comments that "the F18 class is too competitive", which refers a bit to the East Coast fleet, but I think is a bit of a misnomer as even the very best sailors in the class are extremely helpful and friendly!


Scorpion F18
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284854
01/10/17 03:36 PM
01/10/17 03:36 PM
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wildtsail7 Offline
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Jeff this is great news, and I just got the list from SoCal that there are also 19 boats there. And there's another 15-20 in the Bay Area.

Sorry if I sounded harsh in my original response. I take it a little personally when people throw the class to the curb. We're making efforts to do more marketing, but it's time consuming and expensive. The current officers don't have a lot of time, we don't have volunteers stepping up to do things, and we don't have a ton of money to pour into marketing. Though we do sponsor the nationals each year with a generous donation and we plan to spend some more money on marketing, but it's hard to know what to spend it on when people are so hit or miss via social media and emails.
The best thing class members can do is:
1)be the drummer of their local fleet, this has worked everywhere we have someone actively doing it. Keeping it organized, keeping track of members, keeping in contact with members, and etc.
2)Sending USF18 content for marketing on our website... we have to beg for regatta dates and regatta write ups... we don't have time to do that
We have area reps who are supposed to do both of the above. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it takes a lot to chase them down and keep material coming. If everyone could contribute it would be much more apparent that the class is doing pretty well.




Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284859
01/10/17 04:36 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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One thing I've noticed in the marketing department is the F18's have taken a back seat to the foiling boats - A's, Moths, Nacra 17 Mk. 2 etc. in the major sailing publications I follow online. Some of the larger events still get some exposure, like Catacup and Worlds and occasionally Nationals, but I think more air time in front of more sailors would help. We may not be as cool as the latest foiling trend but we are still the largest doublehanded racing fleet capable of 20+ kts in the U.S and abroad, and at a relative fraction of the cost of many other boats, with platforms that last!

Last edited by samc99us; 01/10/17 04:46 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: samc99us] #284869
01/10/17 11:28 PM
01/10/17 11:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
We may not be as cool as the latest foiling trend but we are still the largest doublehanded racing fleet capable of 20+ kts in the U.S and abroad, and at a relative fraction of the cost of many other boats, with platforms that last!


Sorry, but there's another class that claims that spot. Way bigger than the F18s.
[Linked Image]

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284871
01/11/17 12:22 AM
01/11/17 12:22 AM
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wildtsail7 Offline
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Remind me not to hire Matt Bounds as PRO for 2019 America's in Michigan!!!
You do have a point, I'm sure Sam is going to insert "one of".

I wish our platforms were as versatile as Hobie 16s... but different boats for different purposes.
It'd also be killer to have decent sized F18B/C fleet. Maybe in another 20 years when we match the age of the 16 class this will be the case, who knows what we'll be sailing then?! I'm guessing plenty of people will still be sailing Hobie 16s, thats amazing.

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284878
01/11/17 07:58 AM
01/11/17 07:58 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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I would insert "one of", but the Hobie 16 is only capable of those speeds on a reach, and only in certain conditions. The F18 is a 25-28kt boat that regularly does in the low 20's across 90+ degrees of TWA. Its not the same, but you know that already Matt!

We've joked about selling all our spin boats and racing Hobie 16's, then realize how foolish that would be in the light air slug fest that is Chesapeake sailing when the lone TheMightyHobie18 joins us and is lucky to finish before dark. The other reality is, while not super competitive at the pointy end of the fleet, you can sail the F18 at over 400 lbs and still be pretty quick. Anything over what, 300lbs? is a no go on the H16?


Scorpion F18
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284881
01/11/17 09:13 AM
01/11/17 09:13 AM
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brucat Offline
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You guys will never go that fast, because you're afraid of sailing in anything over 15 knots, lol...

Mike

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284887
01/11/17 10:32 AM
01/11/17 10:32 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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I've sailed my boat plenty in upwards of 30 knots. There are plenty of races in Texas and Florida sailed in a lot more than 15 kts of breeze. Try 25 kts of TWS for 3 days in a row blast reaching up the coast in the Florida 300 (half the fleet is F18's). So I have no idea where that statement is coming from Mike, perhaps its a half truth perpetuated on to become a full truth? Or perhaps you're thinking of another boat that isn't quite 18' long with a carbon mast?

Last edited by samc99us; 01/11/17 10:33 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284894
01/11/17 12:50 PM
01/11/17 12:50 PM
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Many, many years of RC experience. That may have been exaggerated by a few knots, but it's not that far off. And, I was trying to be funny (note the "lol").

Mike

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: brucat] #284896
01/11/17 01:59 PM
01/11/17 01:59 PM
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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before you knock another multi class, I guess it's good to indicate your criteria... Biggest class (numbers)? Highest-tech? Lowest-cost?



Jay

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: Ventucky Red] #284897
01/11/17 02:52 PM
01/11/17 02:52 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Jay, not knocking the H16 at all. Its a different boat than the F18 being discussed here, that was my point. My other point is you are going to have a tough time finding a faster boat than the F18 in the double handed category and getting more than 10 on a starting line at a Nationals here in the U.S. All the hype of the foiling boats is great, but for the average weekend warrior, an F18 is plenty!


Scorpion F18
Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale [Re: wildtsail7] #284907
01/11/17 09:34 PM
01/11/17 09:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by wildtsail7

The only boats for sale are used C2s and there seems to be little demand for them as the same guys have been trying to sell them for years... I can't find any used Nacra Infusions MKIIs and every one that has come for sale has sold quickly.



YCMTSU.


I'm boatless.
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