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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #285226
01/19/17 12:53 PM
01/19/17 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

We have a two party system because that is what tends to work.


The two party system would work if the politicians understood that they are there for the people they represent not their or their party's self interest... Which as of late has become a Them vs. Us manifesto

The truth is - a two-party system isn't really that Democratic when you think about it..

Go read George Washington's farewell address.. he pretty much summed it up.


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #285227
01/19/17 02:46 PM
01/19/17 02:46 PM
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You know - I have not seen so much vitriol since the last time a republican was elected.

But really - this time it has gone really over the top with hints of assasination and what not. Incredible things are said on "both" sides of this. At least that is the way it looks from my side of the pond.

But let me bring a small reminder from the last time (and I really thought this guy was not the smartest dude around - but.. Come on - he was elected and the US of A is a democracy as good as any)


[Linked Image]



To be honest - even if Trump is really a special piece of work - the media does look to be pretty biased. Even over time.




Tomorrow is MAGA day - and we will see the beginning of the Trump show. I bet his viewer ratings is improving all the time. Who will he fire first - and what executive orders will we see? How is the budget going to look, if there will be a budget..

Interesting times.


Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: David Ingram] #285228
01/19/17 03:00 PM
01/19/17 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram

Ya see Tony facts and intelligence are no longer relevant. Trump has promised to make white people great again and that's all that matters so anything Trump says or does is acceptable because it's all part of the plan to make Merica white and christian the way god intended!


Funny you say that. My "sista from anotha mista" who happens to be non-white asked about "Make America Great... Again".

She was wondering if that meant back in the day of Jim Crowe laws and such... oof


Jay

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Ventucky Red] #285234
01/19/17 06:20 PM
01/19/17 06:20 PM
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Quote
The truth is - a two-party system isn't really that Democratic when you think about it..


I agree... (small d democratic) The idiot Bernie supporters think that the PRIVATE Democratic Party... must be completely small d democratic... Nope... its a choice... a private party can function through smoke filled rooms as it once did. ...be much more in tune with what the founders wanted BTW ...

Quote
if the politicians understood that they are there for the people they represent not their or their party's self interest.

The devil in all of this political organizational stuff is... an attempt to answer "what do you do about human self interest when you try to govern".

Hey... the founders understood self interest.. they made SURE that the constitution allowed self interest to petition the government.

So, exactly WHO do these politicians represent. you say they don't represent the people... and/or the people's interest.

I understand and can identify a real estate developers self interest.... a teacher's self interest, a miner's self interest, a pornographers self interest. Romeny argued the buisness's were people to.... I have NO idea what the "peoples" interest is.

I can see how a politician represents my interest as a ____ .
I can ID interests for any group in the country.... eg beach access for small catamaran sailors.... VERSUS owners of coastal waterfront property. What does a politician do to represent the people's interest?

So, ... How does that self interest work with the "People's" interest?

My view is that Trump was crystal clear about who's interest he represented in the election... He is on TV now talking about his group of voters and how he will turn it around for them ...
Now of course... tomorrow, he will be trying to obfuscate that stand and say... he is for the people's interest..

same as Obama, Same as Bush, Same as Clinton, Same as Bush, Same as Reagan, Same as Carter, same as Ford, same as Nixon, same as Johnson.

Can you say... ANY of these presidents served the "people's interest in anything but name only... No!... they favored and disparaged lots of things.... and BS'd that as THOUGH it was for the "people's interest".

It's trivial to find opinion and many a fact on how each of these guys did not serve the "people's " interest....

So... IMO, I think the people's interest is a unicorn... and we would love to live in the fairy tale world of unicorns.... but that is not reality.

Seems to me...stop the fairy tale about the "people's interest" and just get down and fight it out...Put it out there... your self interest is XXX and as far as you are concerned... THAT is the people's interest.

Now if you want to talk about principals and values not interests... see the voting rights debate above. We pledge to American Principals.. (everyone's values are their values)

So perhaps the best way to deal with the unicorn called "the Peoples Interest" is contrasting Nixon and Clinton with respect to American PRINCIPALS.
When Nixon attacked the separation of powers... he was impeached ... going to lose and resigned instead. THAT was the only clear cut example of politicians operating on the American PRINCIPALS... some "peoples" interest in nixon finishing his term were killed. He WAS POPULAR until the end .. ... the universal American Principal in protecting and following the constitution as it has evolved through legitimate proscribed means was preserved.

Was it in the American Principle to impeach Clinton for an extramarital blow job and a gotcha legal proceeding answer? History would say nope... Historians have it down right now as partisan self interest. The public had clinton at 60 plus favorable through it all.

Was it on American Principles that Trump argued and promoted the fake news that Obama was illegitimate as president because he was born in Kenya? Or Self interest? Perhaps the people's interest???

Hmm...

IMO, when somebody waves the "peoples interest" at me... I take another hard look at it... Usually... its somebody's self interest at stake and not the People's Principles embodied in the constitution!

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/19/17 08:18 PM.

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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #285236
01/19/17 08:32 PM
01/19/17 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
The truth is - a two-party system isn't really that Democratic when you think about it..


I agree... (small d democratic)

Quote
if the politicians understood that they are there for the people they represent not their or their party's self interest.

The devil in all of this political organizational stuff is... an attempt to answer "what do you do about human self interest when you try to govern".

So, exactly WHO do these politicians represent. you say they don't represent the people...

I understand and can identify a real estate developers self interest.... a teacher's self interest, a miner's self interest, a pornographers self interest. I have NO idea what the "peoples" interest is.
I can see how a politician represents my interest as a ____ .
I can ID interests for any group in the country.... eg beach access for small catamaran sailors.
But... How does that self interest work with the "People's" interest.


My view is that Trump was crystal clear about who's interest he represented in the election... He is on TV now talking about his group of voters and how he will turn it around for them ...
Now of course... Tomorrow, he will be trying to obfuscate that stand and say... he is for the people's interest..

same as Obama, Same as Bush, Same as Clinton, Same as Bush, Same as Reagan, Same as Carter, same as Ford, same as Nixon, same as Johnson.

Can you say... ANY of these presidents served the "people's interest in anything but name only... No!... they favored and disparaged lots of things.... and BS'd that as it was for the people's interest.

It's trivial to find opinion and many a fact on how each of these guys did not serve the "people's " interest....

So... I think the people's interest is a unicorn... and we would love to live in the fairy tale world of unicorns.

Seems to me...stop the fairy tale about the "people's interest" and just get down and fight it out...Put it out there... your self interest is XXX and as far as you are concerned... THAT is the people's interest.

Now if you want to talk about principals and values... see the voting rights debate above.


My interest is what is going on in my back yard - city and county government, and at my state's legislature... that is the stuff that is going to an effect on me everyday.. These are the politics that 99% of the electorate are asleep at the switch on.

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #285237
01/19/17 09:44 PM
01/19/17 09:44 PM
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My point still applies... It's all about self interest. forget the rhetoric about "peoples interest"

So... if 99% of the electorate are asleep (sounds about right to me) what can you do?

My complaint akin to your complaint ,... If people are so damn upset... why are so many politicians re elected?

This stuff is not rational... I HATE the Patriots.... completely irrational... they have hall of fame coaching... hall of fame quarterback...can't tell you many players they win with... I just hate em... but who cares if I hate the patriots...
I think the same happens in politics for most people... You have a gut reaction...it's your team, D's or Rs... big difference... Politics has real impact on the world and people.


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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Mark Schneider] #285267
01/21/17 10:00 AM
01/21/17 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
olitics for most people... You have a gut reaction...it's your team, D's or Rs...


100% of the problem right there... we're on team D... therefore anything team R says or does is wrong no matter how right it is, it is wrong because... and Visa Versa.

Keep going, you're really helping build the argument for the need of a third party.


Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Ventucky Red] #285272
01/21/17 03:24 PM
01/21/17 03:24 PM
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Consider this.... we have EXTREME partisanship... and weak Parties.

The Republican Party could not even nominate a Republican who would even parrot republican orthodoxy....

Parties have lost control of their message and their followers. Every Senator... thinks... I could be president... They work at being the Independent senator... D or an R SSSHH.... Every voter, says, I vote for the candidate... NOT the set of principles and values that an organized group.... aka a party stands on. The voter now believes that they should determine IF the candidate "authentically" stands on his campaign promises..

Parties are so weak... Heck, the very weak democratic party allowed a 30 year socialist candidate to join the party SOLELY to run as a democrat and then put up with him kvetching about the rules. BUT he was "authentic"

The party platform is irrelevant to every candidate in this era. Why bother... You know your side D or R .... its too damn much work to figure out what your side is actually all about... BUT you know in your bones... that the other side is WRONG WRONG WRONG. and the most important feature of a candidate is "being authentic" and you can suss that out better then anyone....

TRUMP and his voters have proven that the Republican Party orthodoxy, aka ... libertarian driven economics, limited government, freedom abroad, muscular foreign policy was not even a majority opinion within the republican rank and file. We are back to the Charles Lindburgh "America First" party of the 30s...

So... Why exactly do you think a third party makes sense... you are not looking for a party organized around some principle... ... you are looking for "the leader who captures the public for a short period of time"

In an election where... "being authentic" was won by the TV STAR over the Politician because... it was clear to the voter.. ... who was "being authentic"!

Consider, "being authentic".... is like being an actor... a great actor is a master at "being authentic" in the role.
So, what ever you do... "BE AUTHENTIC"

It's like George Costanza's view... Its' not a lie... if you believe it... aka BEING AUTHENTIC!


Well, from Trumps Speech yesterday... here we are.. you have "the Leader and his cabinet of oligarchs committed to saving The People from the carnage that is 2016 America created by the two party system of D's and Rs of the last 60 years. AND he is authentic!

Tell me why... a third party makes sense again? and standing on what philosophy... ?? Morever, the key point... can they "be authentic"?

Nope... you were right the first time... voters need to be informed on the issues, have actual facts in hand and then think about their principles and values and vote accordingly. hmm.. IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF WORK! Now, If you want to make a difference beyond your individual point of view/vote ... perhaps getting organized would make a difference.... hmm.... what should we call that thing again ....



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/21/17 03:45 PM.

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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #285278
01/21/17 09:04 PM
01/21/17 09:04 PM
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I get a serious kick watching the far left freak the phuck out because Trump is now president.

What confuses me is why democrats are so up in arms about a Democrat being President.


I'm boatless.
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #285288
01/22/17 05:29 AM
01/22/17 05:29 AM
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The first press briefing was already full of easily verifiable lies, I find that very worrying.
This is not opinion or bias but just fact, it's important to be critical no matter if it's "your team" or not.


Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Todd_Sails] #285291
01/22/17 07:17 AM
01/22/17 07:17 AM
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On the 3 party thing, I've always considered myself an Independent voter, the left is too far left for me on some issues, and the right is equally too far right on some too. I agree with about half of each party, but cannot get 100% behind either one.

As someone mentioned earlier, the fact that these two parties could only produce these two candidates is pretty sad. Mark laid out why we have a two party system, but also if we were to have 3 parties, and say they were evenly split, 33% support of each, then no matter which party won an election, the other two parties, or a 66% majority of the population, would then be governed by a clear 33% minority, and nobody wants that.

I think both R+D are willing to submit to being governed by the other, as long as it's about a 50-50 split, they know the pendulum will swing back to their side eventually, just like it's been doing for years. 8 years of Clinton, followed by 8 years of W followed by 8 years of Obama.

But nobody wants a 3rd party to contend with, because the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.


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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Timbo] #285292
01/22/17 11:51 AM
01/22/17 11:51 AM
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Some signs from the women's march yesterday.

Donald J, Trump Will Lie About This

Super callous fascist racist extra braggadocios

Women Are the Wall
Trump Will Pay For It

Ive seen smarter cabinets at IKEA

Hands off my twat you tweeting twit!

Tinkle tinkle little czar
Putin made you what you are

Hey, Mr Tangerine man, get impeached for me

If I incorporate my uterus, will you stop regulating it?

So bad, even introverts are here

FREE MELANIA!

Melania, blink twice if you need our help

First, they came for the Muslims and we said...
NOT THIS TIME MOTHERF****R





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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: hobie1616] #285293
01/22/17 12:59 PM
01/22/17 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hobie1616
Some signs from the women's march yesterday.

Donald J, Trump Will Lie About This

Super callous fascist racist extra braggadocios

Women Are the Wall
Trump Will Pay For It

Ive seen smarter cabinets at IKEA

Hands off my twat you tweeting twit!

Tinkle tinkle little czar
Putin made you what you are

Hey, Mr Tangerine man, get impeached for me

If I incorporate my uterus, will you stop regulating it?

So bad, even introverts are here

FREE MELANIA!

Melania, blink twice if you need our help

First, they came for the Muslims and we said...
NOT THIS TIME MOTHERF****R


But, looking at the positive of all the marching yesterday... Trump got more overweight people out walking in one day that Michelle Obama got out in eight years... cool


Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Timbo] #285294
01/22/17 03:03 PM
01/22/17 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
On the 3 party thing, I've always considered myself an Independent voter, the left is too far left for me on some issues, and the right is equally too far right on some too. I agree with about half of each party, but cannot get 100% behind either one.



As someone mentioned earlier, the fact that these two parties could only produce these two candidates is pretty sad. Mark laid out why we have a two party system, but also if we were to have 3 parties, and say they were evenly split, 33% support of each, then no matter which party won an election, the other two parties, or a 66% majority of the population, would then be governed by a clear 33% minority, and nobody wants that.

I think both R+D are willing to submit to being governed by the other, as long as it's about a 50-50 split, they know the pendulum will swing back to their side eventually, just like it's been doing for years. 8 years of Clinton, followed by 8 years of W followed by 8 years of Obama.


Well done. You describe how what you value is divided between D's and Rs. That is the case for almost every voter.
You get the process.... you vote for one of them...(an as an american... you demand a fair and inclusive process) Nobody ever said... you had to like the choice.... just choose!

So, Why would just two parties form.... The answer is... How could you get anything done in the real world?

Do you have any examples in life where you have 3 groups who have to make ONE decision at a time and then repeat the process...for the next and the next.. and it never stops. I can't because human brains don't work that way... A forced choice design works and thus the two teams.

Three factions always work their way down to two... again... a forced choice.. the winner of course is always in the "public's interest" (cause they won)

So, its just one self interest beating the other self interest in the public arena with a lot of marketing.

How does that work... The system gets buy in... when they convince you, a voter, that you REALLY have autonomy and you can individually make a difference in the unicorn called a public interest.
Nope... you need group action that is directed... compare Tea Party... don't take my stuff and give it to undeserving "others" A special interest used that noise to preserve their self interest in medical and insurance policy. with MOVE ON, "we want banksters locked up and suffering" Lots of noise that went no where... Hmm whats the difference?

The republican PARTY used the noise and the system to make total resistance to insurance reform acceptable as part of a public interest fight (its what they value) ..... the democratic PARTY did not find it in their interest to use the Move on noise. (they were in power and had passed banking reform as consistent with what they value)

Yesterday, the Woman's movement generated EPIC noise on a world stage... I suspect the Dem's will follow the Republican model and mount total massive resistance with the Noise to whatever Trump and the Republicans eventually come up with.

My point... you need group action that is managed by a strong political party to get results. its hard ball! don't fall for the unicorn... of "it's the public's interest..." don't believe in fairy tales of how things work.
Its mobilized group action that is manipulated by a PARTY to move a self interest that is a shared value.

Got have both bits... and you can't undervalue either one AND the next value could differ... nothing is perfect....

Bottom line... We need to have STRONG partys... not weak ones to make a difference. Misunderstand that relationship... and you amp up your partisanship. As an individual, YOU THINK that your strong Partisanship is important...

Nope... you just made it easy for shadowy special interests to petition the government and get what they want from a weak party structure that gets rolled and paid off. (The Republican Party collapsed after McCain and Romney got crushed by a black politician in america.... the weakness in the rules and PR campaign allowed Trump. MEANWHILE, Democratic weakness allowed Bernie Saunders to rebrand himself and now they are trying to weaken the PARTY further...
You note that the weak parties we have rotate power every 8 years.... umm.... the true special interest ALWAYS win in this environment.. the more PARTISANSHIP... the easier their job to roll the individual politicians and further drive up hyper partisanship.







Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/22/17 03:12 PM.

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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Ventucky Red] #285295
01/22/17 03:47 PM
01/22/17 03:47 PM
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“an island in the Pacific....
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“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Some signs from the women's march yesterday.

Donald J, Trump Will Lie About This

Super callous fascist racist extra braggadocios

Women Are the Wall
Trump Will Pay For It

Ive seen smarter cabinets at IKEA

Hands off my twat you tweeting twit!

Tinkle tinkle little czar
Putin made you what you are

Hey, Mr Tangerine man, get impeached for me

If I incorporate my uterus, will you stop regulating it?

So bad, even introverts are here

FREE MELANIA!

Melania, blink twice if you need our help

First, they came for the Muslims and we said...
NOT THIS TIME MOTHERF****R


But, looking at the positive of all the marching yesterday... Trump got more overweight people out walking in one day that Michelle Obama got out in eight years... cool

We Shall Overcomb

Make America Think Again

Think Outside My Box

Did You Remember To Set Your Clocks Back 60 Years Last Night?

Grab him by the midterms

If Moms Not Happy, Nobodys Happy

Orange Is the New Fascism

Leave it to the Beavers

Viva la Vulva

This Pussy Grabs Back

Donald You Ignorant Slut

Impeach Trump, Convert Pence

Sorry World, Well Fix This

We Want a Leader, Not a Creepy Tweeter

1968 is Calling. Dont Answer

Fact Checkers of the World, Unite!

I know signs. I make the best signs. Theyre great. Everyone agrees
.
Vaginas Brought You Into the World
Vaginas Will Vote You Out

I Wish My Uterus Shot Bullets So the Government Wouldnt Regulate It


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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Karl_Brogger] #285296
01/22/17 04:19 PM
01/22/17 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I get a serious kick watching the far left freak the phuck out because Trump is now president.

What confuses me is why democrats are so up in arms about a Democrat being President.


Let me stop you right there Kellyanne Karl, there is no way you're going to hang the dumpster fire known as Trump on the democrats. You guys bought into his rhetoric and believed he gave **** about anyone other than himself. He is all yours sunshine!





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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: hobie1616] #285298
01/22/17 05:34 PM
01/22/17 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hobie1616

Vaginas Brought You Into the World
Vaginas Will Vote You Out



Where were all of those Va Jays Jays on election day?

Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: David Ingram] #285299
01/22/17 07:51 PM
01/22/17 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I get a serious kick watching the far left freak the phuck out because Trump is now president.

What confuses me is why democrats are so up in arms about a Democrat being President.


Let me stop you right there Kellyanne Karl, there is no way you're going to hang the dumpster fire known as Trump on the democrats. You guys bought into his rhetoric and believed he gave **** about anyone other than himself. He is all yours sunshine!





You guys? No f-ing way would I piss a vote away for someone as far left as a republicunt, so that really rules out the democrats. I voted Johnson, but he's not nearly the libertarian he claims to be.

Donald Trump has been a registered Democrat most of his adult life. Changing a label shortly before an election changes nothing.

I wouldn't fret too much. I'd bet he won't complete a full term. Impeachment is a stretch, but him just quitting is a strong possibility. If the republicunts couldn't get slick willy out, no way will a bunch of whiny snow flake democrats get an impeachment to stick.


(edit)-. Bitch did you really unfriend me on Facebook because of this election?

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 01/23/17 07:28 AM.

I'm boatless.
Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: Ventucky Red] #285300
01/22/17 09:21 PM
01/22/17 09:21 PM
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“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by hobie1616

Vaginas Brought You Into the World
Vaginas Will Vote You Out



Where were all of those Va Jays Jays on election day?

Popular vote count

Clinton - 65,844,954 (48.2%)

Trump - 62,979,879 (46.1%)

Maybe you can provide some "alternative facts" Schwantz.


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Re: The media IS the Democraptic party! [Re: hobie1616] #285307
01/23/17 10:31 AM
01/23/17 10:31 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by hobie1616

Vaginas Brought You Into the World
Vaginas Will Vote You Out



Where were all of those Va Jays Jays on election day?

Popular vote count

Clinton - 65,844,954 (48.2%)

Trump - 62,979,879 (46.1%)

Maybe you can provide some "alternative facts" Schwantz.


Remind me again, who is residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave?

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