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Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: brucat] #285452
02/02/17 12:50 PM
02/02/17 12:50 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Mark, I agree on the SMOD rule. At some point a class will need to be borne, basically the next generation of F18. Trouble with foiling is cost, existing F18's are already too expensive for many, and foiling versions won't be any cheaper.

The only reason I think mixed is at all good for our sport is there has been a bit of trickle down with more females in the F18 class. In general, yes I absolutely agree that the right answer is two disciplines with separate male/female classes like the 49er and 49erFX.

Last edited by samc99us; 02/02/17 12:50 PM.

Scorpion F18
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Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: brucat] #285455
02/02/17 07:46 PM
02/02/17 07:46 PM
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brucat Offline OP
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Here we go again...

Maybe (and we all know that I don't believe this myself) mixed is a bad idea for the USA sailors (can't seem to field a competitive team internationally). But, other countries seem to have figured it out. And, there are two people on the boat, so I'll never blame one of them, let alone the one who is always the same gender. So just stop already.

Mike

Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: brucat] #285464
02/03/17 09:15 AM
02/03/17 09:15 AM
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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I would agree Mike. They made the rule and aren't likely to change back to single-gender event(s), so it's up to USS to figure out how to make that work successfully.

Looking at some of these tough-person/mudder/extreme challenge events on TV, I don't think as a nation we lack males/females who can't cut the mustard as far as strength and agility go...

and if nothing else worked, we could go for the east German swim team or transgenders?


Jay

Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: waterbug_wpb] #285466
02/03/17 09:51 AM
02/03/17 09:51 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Malcolm Page (Newport, R.I.), the Chief of U.S. Olympic Sailing. “The performance management of the team will fall under my position going forward,” said Page.

BINGO!

Looks like Charlie Mckee is moving onwards... So the Olympic Development team will be under new management.

(assuming we don't go to war with Australia for trumpian reasons.... we can't have Trump send him back.... I think this is a major step forward!!!)

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/03/17 09:53 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: samc99us] #285488
02/04/17 05:24 AM
02/04/17 05:24 AM
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garda Offline
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The problem with getting rid of the mixed cat crew is that it would be deeply unfair to the sailors from other disciplines who would have to lose a medal or two.

Almost 20 times as many people do dinghy nationals in the USA as cat nationals for example. Even more people sail yachts, and they don't get any medals at all.

If cat sailors make up less than 5% of sailors at national level (even ignoring all the yacht sailors) it's hard to say that it's fair for them to get 20% of the medals - and we know the IOC doesn't want to hand out any more medals or allow any more competitors.

If we want to get more medals for cats, we'll have to increase the numbers. Remember when the cats were dropped from the Games and lots of people promised to create a cat class for juniors to increase numbers? Maybe we'll have to actually live up to our promise.

Last edited by garda; 02/04/17 05:29 AM.
Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: garda] #285525
02/05/17 11:22 AM
02/05/17 11:22 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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garda

You make an outstanding point about the proportion of sailing medals to cat sailors. IOC gives world sailing 10 medals and so you have many objectives to meet. EG. No keel boats points to one objective not met.

The most important issue (for me at least) was the impact on our actions of the past 8 years and what the future holds. You are correct... what happened to the junior development and growth in woman multihull sailors we expected to see?

So... take another look at the politics of the time 8 to 12 years ago.

With respect to cats.... the Americas cup DOG challenge that led to cats and tris is the primary reason that cats had to return to the games. Gender equity was almost a mandatory objective for the IOC as well. So... No worries in boards, dinghys, skiffs, single handers (lasers).

That leaves two disciplines to meet all the remaining objectives and multi's HAVE to be one objective met.

So... the politics of the times gave us Men's Finn and Mixed Multis. I thought and still believe that the proper compromise was a return to the tradition and make Multi's OPEN.. Then pick a boat that favored light teams to rig the game in favor of women to manage the politics of the times.

The righteous decision had everyone voted on principle would have been Men's Finn and Woman's single handed multi (to be designed).

What have we learned over 8 years?
The past 8 years PROVES that you can design and build a half assed boat for the olympics...(Do you really want to argue that the N17 was a winner.... hell they redesigned the damn thing completely for quad 2) AND if you make it Olympic Gold ... they will come and compete. It does not matter if the boat is a POS. Olympic Sailors are Olympic sailors... If they see an opportunity that matches their size.... They are going for it. There are NO sailing skills involved that can't transfer quickly. The fact that very few woman competed in any multi class world wide WAS true (and a great political argument... It made sense to me at the time as well). The number of woman sailors in the PAST is irrelevant.. Olympic sailors want the gold.... the means to that gold are irrelevant.... so... sailing an Aquacat for a gold medal... may be beyond stupid... but ultimately irrelevant to the Olympic competitor competing in the multihull class. Build it... they WILL come.

The idea was... that mandatory MIXED would be such an appeal to young woman sailors that by quad 2... the demand would force Men's and Woman's multis in the Olympics.. The reality is just a handful of woman participating in cats at ANY LEVEL STILL! (Count the number of woman competing in all recreational multihull class's at a national/international level... and I bet you don't match the number of woman racing the N17. MY Point... they are racing N17s because its OLYMPIC and they are olympic competitors... They are not sailing N17s because it' mixed... or they like co ed sports, or they love sailing in the best designed boat of all time... the N17.
Bottom line... make it Olympic single handed and you get the SAME number .... if not more woman on multi's at an equal or greater rate then creating the silly MIXED discipline.

While it's counter factual.... I think that cat sailing would be far far better off had we told the T sailors have a nice post Olympic life.... Had we had the vision... and made the Olympic mulithull a woman's single hander balancing men's single hander (heavyweight)

On earth 2... I see every elite female junior and collegiate sailor looking at an individual multi discipline and seeing a clear straightforward path. No need to find a partner (M or F) that compliments you and whatever boat they use. NO BS.... its all on their skill and competitive drive. NO olympic pathway fleet will ever look like a pyramid again... However, a robust pipeline of woman from juniors on up will generate extremely skilled amateurs who step off the pipeline path but stick with sailing a single hander for recreation as time, money and life allow. Tipping my sexist hat to the woman... Perhaps a more natural ability to build community works to grow and maintain participation more so then the forest of dicks that you see at regattas now. Perhaps, the sailing scene that has more woman single handed competitors looks just like golf and tennis. Lifetime sports with lots of woman competing. The normal recreational sailor (mostly male) will find the competition with these woman a great challenge on the water and to their ego and maintain interest for a life time.

I see an Olympic single handed 18 foot platform with a rig optimized for the target weight class as a SMOD (because that was ISAF's non negotiable requirement). I see an independent recreational class organized around a formula rule that closely matches the olympic platform design spec with a larger rig. (laser and laser radial)

I see an international Formula One Design of Single handers being extremely successful (Hell... the Hobie 14 still holds ISAF world championship status and the A class continues to flush sailors through as they try to hang in the development class world. Finally, the number one factor in getting young boys to join the sport... would be.... Young girls.

A womans single handed olympic multihull would have been a winner on the Olympic level (fair gender equal competition) and shaped the recreational world in profound ways.

If the recreational single hander class is successful.... the Olympic single handed men's class could change as well. Moths... kites... foiling singlehanders, who knows... A much more sensible objective then mixed giving way to M and W cat classes.

How about a world on earth 2, with three dominant international classes an entry level cat. The Hobie 16 with open, womans and youth divisions.

The International single handed Class with Woman's OD Olympic and Formula OD single hander divisions.

The Int. A class continues with their development/builder ethos.

A spin double hander class like the F18.... and what ever evolves from the F18 movement..... drawing competitors and sending them back to the single handed and Hobie 16 classes in a dynamic healthy way..

YMMV



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/05/17 11:48 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: Mark Schneider] #285555
02/06/17 09:37 AM
02/06/17 09:37 AM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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How about the gender rule in the next VOR? You can have more hands on board if they are female.


Jay

Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: waterbug_wpb] #285563
02/06/17 02:23 PM
02/06/17 02:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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eh.... not as interested in that proposal. for me... it dances a bit close to undermining the integrity of the competition.

For a two person boat.... separate M/W classes handles the equity issue of opportunity to compete. The integrity of the competition is not an issue. (now... when the class manages crew weight issues with a wind minimum and the politics changes that.... the integrity of the competition can be questioned).. why would a country not go for a slot with a T crew of 260 lbs... and then pray for a light air olympics in china. Optimize your chances of a medal.... the rules shape the game and call the integrity into question. (I don't mean somebody is cheating...when I use the word integrity here... a better one has not come to mind.)

IMO.... I see mandating mixed as undermining the integrity of sailing the boat.... Open means two woman could compete as well... So... pick a tiny boat if you want to shape the demographics. .... and let the cards fall were they may....

The mixed solution was political to ensure the woman's Isaf group supported it. They wanted woman's skiff and did not think that gender balanced events was possible. while the T was open.... not many woman competed... they wanted a sure thing of half the olympic slots... The Finn was in a politically dominant position AND had the argument that it was the only heavyweight class after the keelboats got kicked out... and the IOC pres was ex Finn medalist.

Had the idea that olympic representation should reflect the world sailing community popularity choices been lower on the list of values and gender equality higher..... perhaps a different outcome.

It was not even brought up that multi's might be represented but NOT include men... after all the T was vitrually totally a male world.. AND they were behind the push... cleverly putting Carolijn Brerwer (sp) in charge... so... not a politically viable or likely outcome.

In hindsight... I see the olympics as just about EXCELLENCE in the discipline... they should be gender balanced. It does not matter how many woman play at the game in the world... Hell.... how many woman went boxing before it was an olympic sport.
Build it .... they will come... Those that compete will be the best in the world at that event... doesn't matter how popular the event is with rank and file... (see American Football... now faced with Tom Brady hagiography bordering on sainthood for the next 50 years... OMG he he)

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/06/17 02:29 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: brucat] #285567
02/06/17 03:38 PM
02/06/17 03:38 PM
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brucat Offline OP
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Brady needs to win two more, and to get Payton out of retirement (and beat him), to reduce (will never eliminate) the hatred spewed in his direction.

He said it was great to have his kids at the game. Did anyone see all 3 of them? I only saw 2.

#Notasaint.....

Mike

Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: brucat] #285571
02/06/17 04:42 PM
02/06/17 04:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
What and remind people how he dumped the first wife for the supermodel.... Nah.... Trump has proven that trading up periodically is not an issue with public support.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Olympic Sailing Coverage [Re: Mark Schneider] #285704
02/11/17 02:37 PM
02/11/17 02:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline
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Minnesota
...to the top.


Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
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