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Where did everyone go? #288178
01/22/18 06:22 AM
01/22/18 06:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
Where did everyone go?

Last edited by Damon Linkous; 01/24/18 12:44 PM. Reason: Renamed after split from old topic.

Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #288180
01/22/18 06:32 PM
01/22/18 06:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 299
Memphis, Tennessee
Damon Linkous Offline

enthusiast
Damon Linkous  Offline

enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 299
Memphis, Tennessee
Hello @TeamTeats and @Timbo good to see some of the long time members pop up.

After Rick passed away last January a lot of work was done to keep this site going update the software. The forum works and is more "spam free" than ever before due to the updates.

I think people got out of the habit of using the Catsailor forums but I'm hoping for a come-back this year. Please spread the word that Catsailor.com is a safe and reliable place to discuss catamaran sailing again.

Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Damon Linkous] #288182
01/22/18 10:25 PM
01/22/18 10:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 215
Ohio
T
TeamTeets Offline
enthusiast
TeamTeets  Offline
enthusiast
T

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 215
Ohio
Thank you Damon for all the work and money you put into bring this back. It is certainly worth rescuing.

I also heard from CRAM racers that they are too on the comeback and growing.


Mike, Ohio
Former H16, H18, N20, N17, M4.3
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #288184
01/23/18 07:16 PM
01/23/18 07:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Damon, I think that was the best $100 investment I made last year to help you keep this forum alive. I second Mike Teet's comment and hope that you will keep the forum alive and well for at least another year. I am sure you could use the time doing many other things and that is not lost on many of us. Thank-you for your efforts!!

Another Mike from Ohio

Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288185
01/24/18 01:21 PM
01/24/18 01:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 299
Memphis, Tennessee
Damon Linkous Offline

enthusiast
Damon Linkous  Offline

enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 299
Memphis, Tennessee
Thanks Mike and Mike, good to have the support of the Ohio crowd!

2017 was a rough one for me, so I'm hoping 2018 brings less turmoil and more sailing!

To keep Catsailor.com and TheBeachcats.com running, I must come up with a plan to produce income to allow me to spend more time working on it, or paying people to work on it.

Member forums are still the best long-term support for an activity, the history of knowledge that is built up over time is wonderful for anyone newly entering, or returning to the the sport.

Facebook and such are great for instant communication but unfortunately don't create the history and library of knowledge needed to support a sport.

Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288189
01/24/18 11:37 PM
01/24/18 11:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Well to launch things off on the forum.... you just have to revisit the past issues and see if the community can find some new agreement or consensus.

Here are some unresolved debates.

Portsmouth or SCHRS.... What's the best solution for a region and their organizing authorities.?

What do you do about a yardstick boat that gets faster with design advances (F18s and decksweepers) when you don't have enough data to run the Portsmouth engine?

What rating would you use for a modern foiling A cat?

What do you do with huge legacy of F16 designs under various rules in portsmouth or SCHRS?

When should a one design class in a region decide to race with in the handicap fleet?

Is there any buzz about the non Olympic fleet getting into the foiling N17?

What teams are forming to challenge Bora for the US slot.

Whats the fair way to manage foiling boats in 2018?

The junior racing scene has stabalized on Nacra 15s. How could your region support/advise a wanna be junior sailor in this environment?

One design fleets come and go in a region.... What are the success stories... What is the predictable outcome.... What's it take to keep the fun factor a constant?

Any interest in starting a where are they now thread on past contributors to cat sailor?

CRAM and CRAW have decided to do another Catfight... What are the other Big Can't miss events this season?

I gotta million of em!!!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288190
01/24/18 11:43 PM
01/24/18 11:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 299
Memphis, Tennessee
Damon Linkous Offline

enthusiast
Damon Linkous  Offline

enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 299
Memphis, Tennessee
Those are great, go for it. Pick a few you feel strongly about and start a topic for each.

I like the "Where are they now" idea. Probably a lot of folks who were big posters years ago are still sailing, just not posting here like they used to.

There are so many exciting things going on at the top of the catamaran sailing sport with all the new foiling designs, Olympic boat, and the Nacra 15 Youth boat is really taking off.

Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288193
01/25/18 04:40 PM
01/25/18 04:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Grand Haven, MI
T
TiberiusGV Offline
stranger
TiberiusGV  Offline
stranger
T

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Grand Haven, MI
CRAM will be very interested to know about the Portsmouth or SCHRS debate. We have an ongoing discussion on if we should move away from Portsmouth.

We're flattered to hear you call Cat Fight a cant miss event. We hope it will grow.


Marketing Officer for the Catamaran Racing Association of Michigan
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: TiberiusGV] #288194
01/25/18 10:38 PM
01/25/18 10:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
TiberiusGV

A bit of history that your club CRAM and mine CRAC experienced back in the day. Our clubs used the NAMSA catamaran rating system administered by Herb Malm. US Sailing took over the Dixie portsmouth system and with Darline Hobock taking the volunteer lead made a commitment to support the multihull racing scene. Both clubs vigorously debated a move from NAMSA to US Sailing Portsmouth. I have a vague memory of speaking with Roger Cochran at the time. The core principals remain the same and are:
Accuracy
Transparency
Authority
Robustness

Accuracy How close are the ratings to the true rating of the class.
Transparency Do the rank and file racers KNOW what data and methods are used to generate changes in the ratings and do they think this process is fair.
Authority The yacht clubs and catamaran clubs want to know that they have the support and approval of regional and national bodies that can settle all disputes.
Robustness. Can the ratings quickly get to a fair rating for all of the boats that want to go racing. Recalculating last seasons results using the New... better more accurate ratings (not saying I did this....errrr ahem...) is just nuts.

Concurrently, the kind donation of the Hoyt Jolley endowment to support a multihull championship within US Sailing Adult Championship programs was a powerful incentive for most clubs to switch from NAMSA to US Sailing Portsmouth. The idea was that sailors would use one handicap system to go racing. The Authority of US Sailing was a big factor in CRAC's decision to change to USPN.

The Robustness of the Dixie portsmouth system was limited because it is founded on the premise that fleets of one design class boats are being rated. Catsailors of course are constantly trying out modifications to their one design class. This presents a unique challenge to rating systems that presume a fleet of boats. One offs, or changes in rigs, sail areas, boards, etc etc etc are, by definition, not a fleet of boats. The solution of course was to modify the Dixie portsmouth system that was founded on statistical data collection of class data by creating a table of flat percentage modifications. Presto... the statistical system was now robust!

In 2018, the criteria are the same.. Accuracy, Transparency, Authority and Robustness.

Analysis of the SCHRS 2017 measurement rating table was compared to race results from the French racing scene for these classes.


Summary chart for C1 AHPC Viper Double Nacra 20 carbone F18 A Class classic Nacra 17 old Olympic

The SCHRS annual review states. (I can get permission to forward you a copy if you need)

2.4 All these differences are below 2% and most are as expected. There is nothing here to compel us to make any changes to the formula.
Summary [b]SCHRS is accurate[/b]

SCHRS is transparent. Its a measurement rule and ALL of the class OD measurements are published as is the formula used to calculate the ratings. The web site has the data and calculators. Measurement is provided by World Sailing certified individuals.

SCHRS has the authority
of World Sailing and US Sailing will be including SCHRS information in the handicap systems that US Sailing supports. (All handicap sailing administration has been moved under the off shore committee.)

SCHRS is Robust
. A modification to a one design class is measured and the rating for the specific boat is calculated. A one off design can be measured and a final rating for that boat determined. For the owner.... his rating is by definition "accurate" and independently determined and reproducible since approved measure's use the same techniques. For the fleet, The modified boat is rated using the same methods used for their rating.


Final point, the UK RYA portsmouth system is a statistical system as well but fundamentally different in design then the US system. The UK system rates 10 catamaran classes because those are the active UK fleets that can generate yearly returns. They use a hybrid system for anyone with a boat in the dead boat society.

Will Rottering (Houston Area) is the US representative replacing me going forward. I and another volunteer serve on his US committee.

We would be delighted to answer any questions you have and World Sailing has been extremely responsive in getting final answers to any concerns we have raised.
Mark

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 01/25/18 10:49 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288195
01/25/18 11:23 PM
01/25/18 11:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Grand Haven, MI
T
TiberiusGV Offline
stranger
TiberiusGV  Offline
stranger
T

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Grand Haven, MI
WOW I really appreciate all of this information. I will be forwarding this on to Roger Cochran who as you may be able to guess, the CRAM Scoring Officer.


Marketing Officer for the Catamaran Racing Association of Michigan
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288199
01/26/18 07:36 PM
01/26/18 07:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Hi Mark,

OCRA used to do a lot of racing using Portsmouth for any boat that showed up (we encouraged that); popular class boats, some "one-offs", any modification that a racer wanted to try, and many "dead" class or rarely raced class boats. Over the years we found it to be very even and predictive - the sailors seemed to finish pretty much in the same positions regardless of the boats they raced; the classes seemed to finish in an expected pattern to each other, etc.

It worked so well that way that one time when we went racing in CRAM we saw results that were posted that we knew could not be correct because that predictability was wrong - one whole class beat all of the next class that started, for example, and (very long story, short) it turned out that there had been a five minute scoring error in favor of the unusually well performing class.

I always thought that a measurement class could be even more accurate since I have always also raced big boats that use measurement handicap systems (both keel and multihulls) and that is the way the moneyed racers have gone (good old PHRF is still alive and well here in MI and OH). I have no experience with that on the beach cat level and wonder if they use race result feedback to check their accuracy as Portsmouth did.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Fahle; 01/26/18 07:37 PM.
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Mike Fahle] #288200
01/26/18 11:44 PM
01/26/18 11:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
HI Mike

Two points SCHRS World committee does an end of the year analysis comparing the gaps in time between the Formula prediction and actual race results. They publish this analysis. For 2017 they report that the gaps or deltas are 2 percent or less for 5 major classes using large events in France for the race data.

Of course a strong one design fleet will see 20 to 40 percent deltas between first and last place finishers sailing identical boats in class... even at the Olympic level! The SCHRS formula is remarkably accurate and no changes to the formula were called for in 2018.

To put this into perspective... consider a theoretical race. with 10 30 footers all sailed equally well. At the weather mark 9 boats will becoming in on starboard and will have to randomly line up bow to stern on the lay line.... The boat on port tack will get to the weather mark exactly the same time as the first boat on Starboard... However, the RRS of sailing will force port to duck the entire parade of boats and round the weather mark in 10th PLACE... On time... they will be 270 feet behind... or around 6 percent behind on time pending their speed over the ground... Even tho they sailed a perfect race. So... what this means is that the RRS will introduce as much as 6 percent error when you try to measure its performance around the race track. SCHRS has developed an accurate measurement formula for beach cats.

Second point, you write
"the sailors seemed to finish pretty much in the same positions regardless of the boats they raced;"

I agree, the pecking order in a fleet is really a good measure of sailing skill and as you noted.... a very good quick check on the validity of any set of calculated race results. We know the top sailors and we salute anyone who sails really well that day and breaks up the ol pecking order...

IMO, what we want is a handicap game that has Accuracy, Transparency, Authority and Robustness. We can go CRAZY about the last significant number in your rating... Forgetting that the RRS introduce noise... We really should value the other three attributes equally.... Having a rating system that is transparent eliminates a lot of the backbiting that undermines a sailors good performance.. Having an Authority outside of the local region also goes a long way in building support for a system. Darline Hobock, was a singular personality who generated national support for her volunteer efforts in administering US Portsmouth for us. SCHRS builds this authority in by its multinational contributors and international support. Of course Robustness ... ie can it handle Mike Fahles custom and home built sail for his mystere 4.3 (I think that was the last sail I remember you working on) is unique to us in the multihull world..... those dinghy sailors tend not to fiddle with their boats in the same way we do....

Take Care
Mark

Now... what happens when Steve Clark's UFO wants to come racing is a new problem... so... hmmm....


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288205
01/27/18 12:48 PM
01/27/18 12:48 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
veteran
Ventucky Red  Offline
veteran
V

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
I am wondering if our community can support two, three different forums if you count Multi hull Anarchy... Is there a possibility to marry The Beach cats and Catsailor into one forum community?

Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288208
01/28/18 03:22 AM
01/28/18 03:22 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,376
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,376
Kingston SE South Australia
I suspect a lot of people are still here reading the forum like me, I still contribute a bit but only if I feel it's something useful. I was a member of The Beachcat forum many years ago and there are still photos of mine on that site but I never felt as comfortable as I do here. My only suggestion is that photos help dramatically to promote events and activities, for whatever technical reason this forum has always been a bit awkward to post due to sizing so it's not an impulsive thing to do


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288216
01/28/18 11:06 PM
01/28/18 11:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
I'm a member of both forums. In terms of ease of use, I won't favor one over the other, and I really appreciate Damons efforts to keep this site alive simply for the technical content. However, if it was merged with thebeachcats.com, we would make it work. The one thing I've always appreciated about this site is a lot of the top guys would come here and post advice and ask questions of fellow racers, without reading through some of the more mundane topics. I suspect that is what kept those guys coming back here. The downside is we have a bit of a split in knowledge, with beginners overwhelmed or unaware of this forum, and experienced racers ignoring the other. So it could be good for our community as a whole to merge the two, but we also must respect the White's family wishes in this regard.

Now onto SCHRS...

Mark lays out all he details. I will speak from practice. I have run results in both rating systems with no net difference between them. However, SCHRS offers an equitable rating system when modifications come into play. For example, this let one of our former F16 sailors race his boat in 1 up mode with main and jib and compete fairly. His rating ended up being a touch higher than a Nacra I20; he ended up finishing a touch behind the well sailed I20's on a good night and would often correct in front but equally often not. I won't say he was ecstatic about his number (behind used to the Portsmouth handicap system that just assigns a very simple modifier to your rating, no matter how much sail area you add), but I think it made for fair racing without any additional racing statistics required-statistics that would never come. The bottom line is it allows someone to build a line honors boat and race it fairly in a handicap fleet, or make modifications to their existing class boat and race it fairly under handicap without relying on a one size fits all modifier.

There are several other things SCHRS brings to the table. One is a high amount of global race data,primarily French, but they do take input from European events, Texel, and our U.S SCHRS committee. This mitigates the issue that was happening in Portsmouth whereby the top guns would all be racing I20's, that boats rating would get driven low and once the top guys were out of the class the rating would state low as there wouldn't be enough statistical data to correct it out for what a more average team could do against the other average teams.

Second, this rating system is managed by a French committee, they do it well and alleviate the burden on the U.S catamaran fleets to maintain their own rating system (Portsmouth for cats is almost a decade old).

Third, it is free, completely open source and easy to use.

Fourth, and most importantly, it seriously cut back on rating conversations at the bar.


Last edited by samc99us; 01/29/18 07:06 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288217
01/29/18 06:38 AM
01/29/18 06:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
journeyman
Phile  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Where is Wouter? He was a prolific poster for about 10 years and then disappeared overnight.

Re: What the heck is this? [Re: samc99us] #288218
01/29/18 08:46 AM
01/29/18 08:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
We are probably going to start using SCHRS locally on a somewhat limited basis this year.


Jake Kohl
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Phile] #288233
01/30/18 04:15 PM
01/30/18 04:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 118
fl
M
Mn3Again Offline
member
Mn3Again  Offline
member
M

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 118
fl
he was beaten into silence

He was attacked at every turn -
If he "deserved it" It was due to something that happened before i joined (12 years ago)

it was pretty indicative of this forum - this forum had a lot of keyboard bullies


Mn3
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288251
02/01/18 05:42 AM
02/01/18 05:42 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,376
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,376
Kingston SE South Australia
I don't think that's a fair summary, he demanded the intellectual rights to the F12 program we were trying to pull together in the junior forum as a group, he deliberately delayed the writing of the rules for a long time because we wouldn't agree to among other things his demands of mandatory two piece masts. He didn't design any boats, Read the F12 forums for a feel it should all be there. That was his last hurrah he then baled on the forum.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: What the heck is this? [Re: Timbo] #288259
02/01/18 02:29 PM
02/01/18 02:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I recall him hailing the F16 as the pinnacle of the sport for a time... But it was just a fad... smile


Jay

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