My newsletter says that NACRA is coming out with a F17 and that Rules will be on the NACRA Class website later this week. Rules are to go into effect in 2005.

I cringe everytime someone announces a new class to divide us with. We now have formula classes at 14' 16' 17' 18' and 20'(still available 15' and 19') We have enough sailors to support maybe one of these classes. If they want to make a single handed formula boat why not build an F16 and feed into an existing class.

Actually, from what I have been told, it will still be based on the I-17R platform, but with provision for a larger kite for big guys. I also understand that PC will allow the Nacra F-18 rudder blades use as an option.

Single or 2 handed ?

There has been a 2 handed option in the UK for a while (but not taken up by anyone....)

Sparky, is that the NACRA or Performance web site ?

Linky would be fantastic when it come out..

My estimate of the proposed rules.

Rule 1 : You must use the NACRA I-17 platform

Rule 2 : you may use NACRA F18 rudderblades as an alternative to I-17 rudders (which are actually the old Nacra F18 rudders)

Rule 3 : Everything must be bought from Nacra

Rule 4 : Big guys may use a standard Nacra 21 sq. mtr. spi (also known as a nacra F18 spi) instead of the standard Nacra 17 sq. mtr. spi.

Rule 5 : everything else is prohibited.


Due to overwhelming demand this class will come into effect as soon as somewhere in 2005.

Same I-17 platform really just with a new catchy name.

Some formula class !

Wouter

>>There has been a 2 handed option in the UK for a while (but not taken up by anyone....)

Some 40 boats sold by this "option" since conception. Yeah these guys are near bankrupcy !

I wonder how many I-17's are in the UK ?

Wouter

UK 4 17's - we also have the shadow and FX1

Interesting about a bigger Kite.

I am already sailing with a 19 sq as it rates the same under SCHRS at 107 and my down wind angles are already deep when wiring, not sure I need more Kite !

A lighter boat would be nice !

Have to agree with Dan Ward, too many formula classes just divides us up into tiny sub-classes, might as well stay open class, HOWEVER :
If all Formula classes can strive to be equal or very close in performance, this could create ONE Formula class in the future. It`s optimistic, but possible. Only way to acchieve this is to exclude the manufacturers from decision-making positions in the classes, and ask the SAILORS what they want, create the Formula & then tell the manufacturers what sailors want. Will never happen because the manufacturers need to control the market in order to survive, EXAMPLE :
Hobie would not build a F16 boat that is equal in performance to F18, as it would erode the support base for their F18 product, unless there is sufficient market share for both. If Nacra made their F17 equal in performance to F18, same problem, so they will have to differentiate the two, probably by making F17 a single-handed only boat.
So where to now ? create Formula classes that each have appeal to their own target market, but make them equal or very close in performance to eachother, ie F16 ISAF rating = F18 ISAF rating, a good place to start. If F17 does the same, we have 3 formula classes that could compete on equal terms. This would unite sailors who choose different platforms for whatever reason. The one problem with this is that I can`t see F18 sailors welcoming the thought of being beaten by 16ft or 17ft boats, so they will want to stay separate. I can`t see F14 competing on equal rating to F16/17/18, or F20 either, so F14 & F20 will have to play on their own. But F14 could declare H16 non-spin & P16 non-spin as their "target class rating", so should strive for ISAF rating of 1.16, which I think is realistic, this would allow them to include H16 & P16 sailors in their foundation boats. This would create larger fleets racing on elapsed time, main objective of Formula Classes. One of the objectives of Formula classes should be to INCLUDE as many existing cat classes as possible, even if the classes are different lengths, as far as I know I-17 & FX-One are INCLUDED in F16 class as their performance should be very similar.
I would propose 3 formula classes, all as inclusive as possible :
-F14 : including older generation non-spin 16ft boats, ISAF rating 1.15-1.17
-F16/17/18 : Allow P18, TheMightyHobie18 (& Dart18?) with spi, must rate equal to F18 or less.
-F20 : More of an open class, allowing Tornado, SC20, N6.0 etc.

Question : Would F18 sailors in general welcome inclusion of F16 &17 boats at their events racing on equal terms ? Or would F16 & F18 only compete on equal terms at Open events ?
I reckon that`s like asking if Tornado sailors would welcome I-20`s at the Olympics .

Cheers
Steve

Simone,

>> 4 17's - we also have the shadow and FX1

Thanks for the info. I rest my case. Well with the exception of getting a few of these several tens of "double moded" boats of ours out to some events in the UK.

About the larger kite.

I completely agree with your statements.

Call me a whimp but I'll stay with 17.5 sq. mtr. That is more than enough for me.

> a lighter boat would be nice

That two, now increase the mainsail area as well add a selftacking jib plus some lightweight carbon parts for halve the price of the heavier alternatives, keep the width and you'll end up with an F16 that is 200 mm or 8 inches to long in the hulls.

I fully understand that I'm baised to the F16 but what is honestly the point of the F17 ? In all fairness it can only aspire to be just as fast and no more as the F16 is already pretyy much at the max of everything. Those 8 inches extra hull length won't do much, believe me.

Besides the F16 rules fully allow the I-17, FX-one and Shadow to race with us using the grandfather rule.

Afterall the F16 class was partly created to consolidate the singlehanded-doublehander segment of cat sailing as the large number of slightly different boat fragmented this segment into oblivion.

Our arms are open and we are happy to welcome you. Stronger still, we challenge to come and race with us and show us the potential of your (in general, not you personally Simon) sailing skills (1st and most important) and boat (secondairy and relatively minor in the big picture)

Wouter

How can we race arm-in-arm with F16 ? F16 rates 102, I17 / Shadow Rate 107, FX 1 rates 104 (all SCHRS)

No wonder you are happy for us to come and race with you !!!!!


Simon.

Simon,

It is the NACRA Class website (http://www.nacraclass.com/northamerica/NAINDEX.htm).

Looks to be a single-handed class.

thanks sparky, will ahve a look later

>>How can we race arm-in-arm with F16 ? F16 rates 102, I17 / Shadow Rate 107, FX 1 rates 104 (all SCHRS)


I-17R version is rated faster and it is all about sailor skill anyway. Mozzie F16's are 8 % slower on paper then us however these "Can do mentality" skipper have caused a stir or two by finishing ahead just the same.

Besides FX-one full = 104 , F16 = 102 ; 2 % speed difference ; do YOU think that this is significant ?

I can tell anybody right now that finishing within 2 % of the leader will either make you de leader or give you 2nd place; in a small percentage of race you can be 3rd but as good never 4th or more down the road. 2% in 45 min racing = only 50 second. Even the top 3 in large F18 races do often span out more than 50 seconds. In short If you are not in the top 3 while sailing a FX-one during a F16 race than you need to work on your skills before creating another class that you THINK you can win in.

>>>No wonder you are happy for us to come and race with you !!!!!

We are happy to race F18's as well even F20's.

Most of us know already that the nut behind the tiller is 85 % of the overall result. Most sailors make far to much out of 1-5 % theoretical speed difference.

Besides ;

F16 is not the class claiming :

-1- The speed and power are unprecendented for a boat its size
-2- ... allow the nacra F17 to be pushed to the limits long after the competition has backed off.
-3- With the nacra F17 ... proves to the competition that the .. designs are truelly the trend of tomorrow.


So I say bring them and race us F16's.

Wouter

Otherwise just call it the I-17 class as it is known already

Scooby,
So, you want a lighter I 17?

Take out you circular saw and cut about 1/3rd off your daggarboards

Everytime I lug mine to the boat, I wonder how many pounds I would save,....I suspect 6 pounds or so.( ..that is 5%)

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Wouter,

I guess I missed that grandfather clause.

Tell me about this. For example.

A FX-1, I-17 normal, I-17R/spin race in a F 16 event.

How are the above boats rated?

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Sparky,

Thanks for the link.

Nice pic too.

Is it my eyes, or are those bows starting to 'dip'

I thought the bows 'lifted' under spin?

I see the waves about 2-3 inches too, so the effect we see is not surface condition.


Bruce

Texel rating has measured more I-17 versions than SCHRS, Texel is typically 1 point higher than SCHRS.


Inter 17 Orginal (Aus version) : 115 (Doublehanded version with jib but no spi)

Inter 17 : 111 (also known as the EU version)
Inter 17 R : 103 (The US singlehanded version)

Inter 17 XL ; 108 (A rare version apparently only found in EU; I don't know much about it)
Inter F17 : 104 (calculated using specs as found in flyer)

Apparently the mainsail area went down from the I-17R to the F17 : 16.44 sq. mtr. to 15.80 sq.mtr including the mast.

F16 = 102 - 101 depending if you sail doublehanded or solo.

Seems to me that the I-17R could race very well with us.

Wouter

Wouter,

>I guess I missed that grandfather clause.
>Tell me about this. For example.
>A FX-1, I-17 normal, I-17R/spin race in a F 16 event.

Go to section 5 and 6 in the F16 rules

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_class_rules_section_C_class_events.html

here you can read up on the grandfather clause


It boils down to this :

All events are by default OPEN Formula 16 class events unless specified otherwise or when the event is a international event like a future Worlds. The last is logical.

This means that any grandfathered boat or one eligable to be grandfathered is welcomed under the conditions that :

-1- it is agreed that the first over the line wins and the other places are scored accordingly.
-2- participation is done in good taste and along the lines of the spirit of the F16 rules.

The spirit is of course "Don't Bitch just sail as good as you can and have a beer when back at the beach" We are one big sailing fraternity and if you win then we want to hear all about it; when you loose then don't blame the boat.

The rule is written in such a way that the given boats have equal ratings to the F18's or just a little slower; meaning we can all race first in wins with a margin of only a few %.

There is some talk about temporary grandfathering but that is only included to have a handle when somebody dhows up with the intend to F*ck-up the class. That is against the spirit of the rule and we will revoke his grandfather status.

There are way to exploit the grandfather rule so that boat that in inequal can still be entered. We needed to protect ourselfs for possible future unfair entries. We certainly intent to never use this provision.



>>How are the above boats rated?

See my other post in this thread.

Sadly you have the slowest I-17 of the bunch; luckily you have the conditions that it should not hold you back much. See you own experiences against the FX-one which is rated faster than your boat

regards,

Wouter

The way i see it
The I-17 sold mainly in Eu called the Nacra 17
In North America the I-17R is the main model sold now called the Nacra F17.
both are single-handed classes.
The Nacra F17 will have two spinnakers, a larger one for sailors over 210 lbs. with a estimated sail area of 12sf larger than the standard one. (nice idea)
no mention of any formula class that, I have read, but I might be missing something.
F16 Class, is it a single handed class or double handed class seems odd to try to be both?
one final note, HEY Wouter its Nacra not nacra, I see you cap all other manufactures.
just my .02
Ted Z

OK, I had missed the grandfather clause too, however, I think we need to measure all the Inter 17's in the world.....



Looks like the UK boats rate as F16's : http://www.nacra.co.uk/ click catamarans, Inter 17, shows length of 17 feet (5.25 mtr)

Looks Like US boats got a little longer somewhere : http://www.nacraclass.com/F17.htm

I believe my boat is 17 foot 5 long.......(LOA) but not sure what LWL is (17 foot 4 ?)

BTW Bruce, clocked my I17 at 15.7 Kts on my GPS with the kite up in not that much wind on Sunday (F3-4) All I need is a nice F6+ (and flat water) to go and play on !