Hello,

Realizing there has been discussion on this subject, and even some current conversation in the f16 forum—and also that there are many, many opinions, I am going to risk broaching the subject of a “dual purpose” boat once again. I’m looking for a used boat, for East Coast U.S.A. purchase, that is suitable for an aging sailor who is not lightweight (200+ pounds). The boat would be sailed mostly one-up but hull volume and sail area to sail two up on occasion is highly desirable. I was VERY excited about the Taipan 4.9 when it appeared on the market, figuring that that would be my next boat. Unfortunately, the sole US dealer is now (apparently) gone and only a dozen or so boats exist across the country. I used to sail a Hobie 16, and a Nacra 5.5 Uni, but currently have a Hobie 17, which I love to sail; however, that boat is hardly appropriate for a big guy and certainly not terribly responsive with two on board--especially with the lousy wind typical of the Chesapeake bay in the summer.

A new boat is not a good choice as I don’t want to spend 10k + for an occasional boat. I don’t really race anymore, but might go to some local or division (open) regattas if I had a boat with a chance of being somewhat competitive (don’t really care about winning anymore, but I do have an aversion to being a mark behind the fleet, as happens often sailing my h17 at 225 pounds).

Anyway, I’d like to hear from the catsailors out there on this. The bottom line is that I’m looking for a boat in the 16’-18’ range designed primarily for a single sailor, that has enough hull volume to be half-way decent for a big old guy, and will also be OK to sail on the rare occasion that my wife wants to go for a sail.

Thanks,
RickO

Hmm

Jim Boyer will be in the Annapolis /West River area in about a week or so, perhaps you should get in touch with him for direct answers to your questions. There is also a dealer who can get you a boat.

What you are looking for may be rare on the used market right now. Three boats would meet your needs, the Nacra, I17, the Hobie FX one and the Taipan 16. The latter two can be rigged with jibs alone, spin's alone or both. I know of sailors who sail all three of the boats on the Chesapeake Bay and each loves their choice. The old adage of you get what you pay for holds for cats as well.

Of the older boats... I would suggest that the Nacra 5.5 uni would be a better choice then the Hobie 17 since the 5.5 is also used for the 5.5 sloop and will carry 300 lbs pretty well. These boats have been succesfully modified with Hooters and now certainly with snuffable chutes when you want more horsepower down wind.

Good Luck
Take Care
Mark Schneider
CRAC

I sail the Taipan at 185 lbs and have been competive with the other Taipan sailor in my area who is 140 lbs; in fact, I'm a lot better off with it over 10-12knots! I'm depowering the main significanty at 14 knots. It's a great boat and the large jib keeps plenty of power when adding a second guy. I've also sailed it in 16+ knots 2-up with main and spinnaker (no jib)--wow, what a ride!!! The boat is fast and nimble, and it makes me look like a better sailor than I really am. I've heard that the T4.9 cat-rigged champ in Australia is over 200lbs. There's quite a bit of hull volume for its length--much more than a H17, for example.

Having said that, I've seen the Fx-1 and I17R--they are quite a bit bigger than the Taipan in terms of hull size and rig size. If the Taipan relies on finesse and light weight for performance, the Fx-1 and I17R (and N5.5U) rely more on brute force. Probably very similar in final performance, but different in their approaches.

The lack of a US dealer is curious but not really an obstacle. I just called (you could also email) Greg or Jim, the designers/makers, and ordered one. Very simple. The real obstacle is cost. The exchange rate with Aus. is improving, though.

No used Taipan 4.9s are available in the US right now, and if one did come on the market it wouldn't last long as demand is higher than supply. (Note that the cost of the I17R and Fx-1 is also in the same range as the Taipan, and used ones are similarly scarce.) But a really viable option is to purchase a second hand Taipan from Australia and have it shipped. The build quality is of a standard than even the earliest boats are still stiff and competitive. A used Taipan can be had for well under 10K.

The new Blade F16 will be made in FL but will likely cost > 12K as only new ones will be available. The Stealth F16 is another option, but the hulls have quite a bit less volume than the Taipan and that might be an issue for you (it's a very nice boat, though).

Do you still have a N5.5? Another option would be to pick up another 5.5 or even a 5.0 and add a spinnaker--they would also make sweet one/two-handers. This would be the least expensive option. I'm sure the H17 is a bit of a dog for you, especially downwind. Adding the spinnaker to cat sailing has been one of the most enjoyable things for me, and it adds that hull-flying spark to the downwind ride.

Maybe look into the new GCat 5M Mk3. Or an older G-Cat 5M Mk2 and add another headsail on a pole. Any way you swing it, a GCat will hold a tremendous amount of weight. I've had over a 1000lbs on my 5.7M and didn't even put the hull-stripes under and it still sailed decently well (later with only 1 other crew on board (~300lbs combined weight) we were nicely double-trapped).

You could probably even handle a GCat 5.7M. I normally single-hand mine up to 15knots and I'm only 150lbs. Granted, over 10knots I consider going uni.

>>Fx-1 and I17R--they are quite a bit bigger than the Taipan in terms of hull size and rig size

Are you sure about the FX-one rig size. Because the mast of the FX-one is 8.5 mtr tall just like the Taipan and the mainsail area is given by Texel to be 14.91 sq. mtr. while Taipan is 14.58 sq. mtr. a difference of only (converted to ft) 3.5 sq. ft. F16 allows about 14.85 sq. mtr. and is as good as the same size as the FX-one main. Spi's and jibs are the are the same size. F16 selftacking jib is only a bit smaller ; by some 13 %

I-17R rig is alot bigger though. But no jib as far as I know although there are some rumours about a jib kit being (made) available

Wouter

The I-17R does have the jib kit! I actually own the kit and use it from time to time in light wind distance racing 1up with the spinnaker. The I17R with the jib kit, 2 up would workout well especially when the wind is up. The lowest price on a used I17R that I have seen so far was about $7500 to $8000.

Tom Turlington
I17R #124

Jib kit is available for the I-17R and has been in the US for more than a year. Prices for used I-17Rs is still pretty high...more than $8K on average...from what I hear. All that being said, I think the I-17R (now called the NACRA F17) is exactly what you said you want. As a single handed boat, it does what you ask, and for those skippers weighing 210# or more, there is a larger spinnaker available and class legal. The boat is rated to safely carry 300 Kg. (660 lbs) in crew, but I expect it is significantly slower with that weight!

I sailed the H17 when I weighed 210 # and I know your pain! I moved to the NACRA 5.5 Uni and had a great time racing that boat from 1991 through 1999, and that boat can carry the weight and still be competitive. I think the average weight of the National Champion varied between 175# and 190#. The hulls will carry significantly more weight than that and the class minimum for the NACRA 5.5 SL is 275#. The spinnaker is what prompted me to move to the I-17R and I have sailed one for the last 5 seasons. As you have read from others in this thread, flying a hull downwind is what makes spinnaker boats so much more fun than other Uni rigged catamarans. The steering system and balance of the I-17R allows a single-handed skipper to tend to the spinnaker, opposite board, mast rotation, etc., etc., etc., with the boat continuing to track on course without having to hold the tiller. I don't let it go for long, but a very gradual turn to weather with main only and a similar turn to leeward with spinnaker up is what happens when I put down the tiller...very predictable and necessary, I think, for a single-handed spinnaker boat. There is a guy in our fleet who started on the Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker for the same reasons you state. He sold the Taipan and bought the I-17R and told me he likes the I-17R better. He is the only one I have heard of that has owned both boats. Hope this helps.

Les, do you happen to know how many I17R's there are in the US?

Mark.

Hi,
I owned three Nacra 5.5' ('89 Uni, 93 SL and a 98 SL) prior to buying the Hobie FX-1 , my current boat. If you are looking used, I think the 5.5 is a great choice for the money. The SL, sailed uni, is recognized as a 5.5 uni, so this may be your best choice. I also may know of one for sale in the NorthEast area.
If you could spend more, I really love the FX-1. I sail it with the jib and extra trapeze, mostly two up, and often solo. I think it is the perfect combo boat, which is EXACTLY why I purchased it. I also believe it is much faster than the rating adjustment as a two-up boat, and have sent Darline Hobock (PHRF multihull chairperson) results from a race where I took a Prindle 19 and a few other boats that owed me time, boat-for-boat, which may indicate a need for a rating adjustment. I've also asked Darline if she could provide a two-up rating for the boat (since I feel it sails better that way anyway), just like the Hobie 17 has a two-up "sport" rating.

A photo is attached. She's a pretty boat too.

Good luck, and feel free to contact me privately.

Steve
Hobie FX-1, Sail #211

Mark,

There are at least 30 NACRA I-17Rs in the US, but I don't have an exact count anymore.

RickO
You asked “I am going to risk broaching the subject of a “dual purpose” boat once again. I’m looking for a used boat, for East Coast U.S.A. purchase, that is suitable for an aging sailor who is not lightweight (200+ pounds). The boat would be sailed mostly one-up but hull volume and sail area to sail two up on occasion is highly desirable.”

You just described the sailing characteristics of the Supercat 17. It fits perfectly with what you asked for. The SC boats are extremely well made, and have a long life span. Supercat may not be the first name in catamaran that come to mind… they are not the most “popular” cat…but just remember that Ferrari is not as “popular" as a Chevy either…

Regards,
Bob

The Supercat 17 does sound somewhat like what RickO was looking for. As long as he isn't looking for a whole lot of performance. The Suppercat's rating is 73.3 while the NACRA 17 rates a 66.7

Tom

>>I was VERY excited about the Taipan 4.9 when it appeared on the market, figuring that that would be my next boat. Unfortunately, the sole US dealer is now (apparently) gone and only a dozen or so boats exist across the country.

That info is incorrect; two dozen is more like it and I think this is more than de FX-ones and less than the I-17 or A-cat but as Eric Poulsen wrote earlier. None of these boats are very abundent.

Wouter

>>There is a guy in our fleet who started on the Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker for the same reasons you state. He sold the Taipan and bought the I-17R and told me he likes the I-17R better. He is the only one I have heard of that has owned both boats. Hope this helps.


I thought J. switched because he wanted to get into OD fleet racing instead of PN racing and the I-17R definately has a better class thing going on in the great lakes area. A good reason to switch, I think.

However I would be surprised if he sold the Taipan because he disliked it as a design.

Wouter

Thomm,
The 2004 US Sailing PN for the ARC17 is 70.0. This is the PN demonstrated by the ARC17 at the Tradewinds this past Jan. The spin was not used during the last four heats which were the only heats out of six that should be used in the PN calculations. During the first two heats there was much confusion on the race course and boats in the Open class sailed different courses and different numbers of laps due to not understanding the race instructions. If you correct this demonstrated 70 PN for the spinnaker, you get 67.3. That's pretty good for a boardless boat. The PN for this boat will settle down with more race data. This is one data point; the first data point for this new boat.
Good sailing,
Bill

Thanks all for you replies. This is very helpful. Lots of good info to sift through and weigh against what is available and logical. Another problem faced by Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Portsmouth sailors is lack of water access--the place is terrible. A light weight, simple to rig boat is a distinct advantage.

Mark--while I should know who Jim Boyer is, and the name is familiar, I can't quite remember. I like the idea of having a flexible rig in terms of jib/no jib Plus Spinnaker. After 20 years of sailing a 16 and the 17, simple is good! I'd probably want to sail primarily with main only, altho popping a spin sure is fun! ( Don't have that much experience with them but enough that I know how enjoyable they are.) I do sail by myself most of the time--and usually fairly conservatively (OK, OK, trapping off my 17 wing in 20 knots and big waves is really fun) and would probably not sail spinaker in that situation. Would be a good excuse to go to some regattas tho.

The 5.5 is a nice boat--had one (5.5 uni) for a little while but only sailed it a couple times before it umm, went away. Big boat and big stick. I know its an older design, and plenty are around. That would make it a good choice expense-wise, but--a big question is the differences between that boat and the newer designs (T4.9, I17, FX1). What are the features of the newer boats that make considering the higher price a worthy effort? I'm not trying to be flip, but is it worth it for a guy who no longer wants to invest the emotion and time needed for competitive racing? I'm not looking for the cheapest boat--just the best one. I don't anticipate buying another one.

Eric, your comments about the Taipan 4.9 being light and nimble, plus being able to handle one or two sailors is what attracted me to that boat to start with. I had not considered trying to have a used Taipan shipped from Australia--very good thought. The downside is, that even tho I don't really care so much about racing so much, having a boat with some presence on the East Coast makes some sense. However, I don't know how many I17's for Fx-1's there are either.

In terms of a GCat, I've known a few of those boats over the years, but didn't realize they were on the comeback (again). Sounds like an interesting boat, but the likely route for me would be to retrofit a used boat--but haven't seen any of those for sail. I did read the thread about them.

Les, you caught my eye when you said wrt the I17 "for those skippers weighing 210# or more, there is a larger spinnaker available and class legal. Is that something that is available with any other boat. My main sailing is and will be single handed. The only time I'll have someone else on board is just fun sailing, or perhaps some of the short distance races held on the lower chesapeake (e.g., Low Rent--has a new name now but can't remember it). The fact that the boat will hold course fairly well with no hand on the tiller is good for solo sailing ( I know, I know, any well-balanced/rigged boat will do that!).

Steve--thanks for you input on the Hobie FX-1. Isn't that a pretty new boat? I've never seen one for sale (admittedly, I usually only look at the local adds, and those in catsailor). You photo didn't attach but the Hobie site has some.

Rick Overbaugh

Rick,

Jim Boyer and Greg Goodall designed and manufacture the Taipan 4.9/F16, Capricorn F18, Auscat (A-cat), and Aussie Flyer (A-cat). [See ]http://www.ahpc.com.au/] Jim is about to tour the US and potentially could show you or take you for a sail on his design.

It seems that the various boats you're looking at are found in pockets hear and there. There's a cluster of T4.9s in Florida, a few in VA area (more in the East than anywhere else). There's a cluster of I17Rs in the midwest and (I think) the Gulf coast. There are no clusters of Fx-1s yet, but I've seen a couple here in CA so far. So if you want to be in an already present group, see what's around in your area.

Of course the best way to decide what boat to get is to go out and sail each of them. Then you'll know if the new ones have much to offer over the 5.5, and you'll know which suit your needs best. Also, you can't neglect looks--a boat's gotta satisfy your aesthetic sensibilities too. The F16s (Taipan, Stealth), Fx-1, and I17R are all nifty boats; all are relatively scarce at this point in the US (compared to Hobie 17,eg); all will be tough to find used. (No one wants to part with them.) But you should definitely be able to sail any of them before deciding which you like best.

Good luck and enjoy the process.

Howdy Rick,

Thought about this quite a bit and you might want to think about a used Marstrom A-cat. It won't be as good as some double handed but from what I have been given to understand it is the best of the As for big-boys and will really fit your bill perfectly for the single handed side of your question. And for when you want to double hand it should be adequate given Karen's size.

It will also satisify the requirement of perhaps being the last boat you ever have to buy. And I can also tell you from experience that light boats are great for all of the rest of the logistics aspects.

http://www.marstrom.com/administration/Boats/acat/index.asp

http://user.tninet.se/~zdt420t/acatstuf.htm

http://www.boatshow.com/A-Cat-Marstrom.html

Wouter,

I only said that he said he prefers the I-17R, not that he disliked the T4.9. I think his comments related to handling the boat single handed with spinnaker and he found the I-17R to be better for getting the spinnaker up and down and still keeping the boat under control. The NACRA was designed around single handed spinnaker sailing and it does that better than anything else I have seen. Other designs may do what they were designed for very well also (T4.9 was designed as a sloop and later sailed as single handed boat, then a spinnaker was added).

I only know of two single handed boats that started out as spinnaker boats, the NACRA I-17R and the Hobie FX-one. (I know that Marstom makes the M-18, but when I asked about it, the sales pitch was about it being an A-Boat that could easily be converted back and forth from A-Boat to M-18, the difference being beams and spinnaker rig.) Based on input from two people who have sailed both the I-17R and the FX-one, I don't think the FX-1 is as well thought out in the spinnaker up and down aspect, as both said that they had to clamp the tiller with their leg while putting up and taking down the spinnaker or the boat would turn significantly.

Rick,

I think NACRA took a look at what F-18 has done to allow closer racing between crews of different weight, allowing a larger spinnaker and jib for the heavier teams. The first of the larger spinnakers for the F17 is expected to be sailed competitively this weekend and feedback to the sailmaker will be provided. I have not heard of any other classes that allow the different size spinnakers for the big boys. BTW, there is a jib kit for the NACRA, but was not designed for or allowed in class racing. It was provided for people like you who want to take their wife/kids for pleasure sailing some of the time.