We have a thread for the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy and a thread for the International C-Class Catamaran Championship.

Both are claiming to be the "Little America's Cup."

If you have an opinion either way, please put it here so it does not interfere with their coverage of their respective events in their separate threads.

Both of them are great events, deserving of great publicity.

But the "Little America's Cup" nickname is a separate issue, in my opinion.

Mary, Since you are going to open this can of worms. Here goes.
Neither should have any claim to the Nickname!

Why, because in a sport as small as ours, it only confuses those outside the sport of catamaran racing.
This type of stuff is one reason why we are and will always remain the redheaded step child of sailing, we can't even agree on who get's the nickname.
Both set's of organizers need to set thier respective ego's aside and just run with the name's they have chosen.
If the racing on either side is good, over time, no one is going to care what the nickname is or was.

Good Luck to both groups, what ever name you chose to use.

CO

Great answer, because that is exactly what I think. But the problem is that both events are using that nickname, and it definitely does confuse things for the public.

It's sort of like the media giving a nickname to a professional basketball player. Does that nickname then belong to the player? Like "Air" or "Earl the Pearl"?

c class as it has been is what i think of as the lil am cup just because they did it first. nobody who spills paint on canvas today is a great artist tho jackson pollock is immortal for originating the idea. the lil am cup belongs in spirit with the original concept in my opinion. the c class challenge is also more similar to the original concept of the americas cup.

C Class

Both should be great sailing events, but I agree that the C Class is the closest to the spirit and concept of the original.
I also see that WF heads his post: "2004 International Catamaran Challenge Trophy", so he is not getting into the controversy.
I hope that both events are a sucess and help to promote cat sailing.

-1- Past winners of LAC were sailing C-class
-2- The history of LAC is linked to C-class
-3- C-class is the pinnacle of multihull sailing development just like new AC boat designs
-4- There is true development in the C-class even thought most of it will never be used in normal classes

Wouter

C Class

Maybe W.F. is not getting into it, but the ICCT Trustees apparently are. This is from their press release about the ICCT event:

The International Catamaran Challenge Trophy was created by a deed of gift given by Seacliff Yacht Club (Long Island) in 1961, as an international match-racing trophy for catamarans. The ICCT has been contested 22 times since 1961. From the beginning, the press used the nickname the “Little America’s Cup” in reference to the trophy and it continues to be known by that name today. The 2004 ICCT will be raced using the 18HT’s and the boats will be governed by the 18HT development class rules.

This is Steve Clark's comment on this subject:

As to the LAC moniker, it is really up to the court of public opinion to decide where that belongs. Is it a trophy, a race, a contest in a class of boat, who knows? Neither the C Class nor Sea Cliff can enforce any rights, so what both parties are doing is just not ceding anything to which they have a legitimate right. Messy and hard for people to keep straight, but that's the way the worlds is.
I don't think this should cloud the issue, fact is that for the first time in 6 years we are racing C Cats again, and man are they great boats!

I'm not sure why either of these events wants to be associated with the Americas Cup.
Maybe the event that is first to be decided by a "little law suit" should get the title.

I wonder what this debate would be like if the ICCT trustees, instead of going to a smaller cat like the F-18HT, had decided to go to a bigger boat, like the Formula 40.

It seems to me that the ICCT being sailed on F18HT's is just a "Worlds" competition. The "C" class boats are such that you will not see one racing in just any regatta, just as you will not see any of the AC boats in just any race. They all have their plusses (we won't talk about the minuses)and the racing is all great but if you use a standard class to do the race it becomes just another "worlds", "continentals", "european championship" or what ever you want to call it.

JMO...

Its all sailing to me.

Clayton

If I remember correctly, the ICCT only agreed to use the Bimare F18HT for two years and this is the second year. I assume that the motivation for the original switch was because of a lack of activity in the C-class catamarans (which is probably debateable). Switching to the F18HT has definitely brought about a new era with a challenge every year and tons of talent (which I like) but we did certainly loose an aspect of the development that takes place with the C-class boats. I assume that the intention of the ICCT may be to open up the competition to full 18HT rules which does allow a bit of development. Perhaps their intention might be to switch back to a c-class format now that the c-class cats are visibly active again and attention surrounding the ICCT is relatively high.

I'm only guessing and proposing possibilities but I could argue either way regarding who should keep the nickname and as such I agree that nobody should use it!

My understanding was that they were going to use F-18HT's for an indefinite period into the future but they were going to limit it to the Bimare brand for the first year or maybe two until it got off the ground. I did not see "Bimare" mentioned in the press release for this year's event, so maybe they have already opened it up to all F-18HT's. I will try to get that clarified.

May be the C Class should adopt the name...... The Fast America's Cup

Now I`m confused, and can only assume the nickname was given to the event some time after 1976, and then probably by an American journalist, since it took the US 13 attempts to win it from the Australians, who held the Cup for 3 years after beating Denmark.
So my thinking is that it should have been called the Little British Cup, since they were the longest continuous holders of the cup, and have to this date held the Cup more times than any other team, at 8 in a row.
The Auzzies & the US have held it 6 times each, so perhaps the ICCT is a much better name for it.
I don`t think a comparison can even be made as to which class is the pinnacle of catamaran design.

To me, the LAC/ICCT lost it`s spark when it became a one-design match-racing regatta, and I`m glad the C-class guys have stepped up to the plate again. I think both are great for cat-sailing, the newer format seems to attract world-class sailors whose names we all seem to know, the only disadvantage of the C-class event is that, outside of C-class themselves, most I`ve not heard of with the exception of Gavin Colby. The other sailors may be top-class sailors, but they seem so involved in developing the boats that we don`t see their names at other class events ie Worlds / Olympics, so it`s hard to guage the level of competition.

Either way, in a perfect world, I`d get to be on a spectator boat for both.

Cheers
Steve

The nickname "Little America's Cup" was attached to the event from the very first race in 1961. One story is that it was actually the suggestion of Rodney MacAlpine-Downey, designer of the British C-Class entry, Hellcat.

In the case of the big America's Cup, it is not named for a country. The first race was held in Great Britain as part of a World's Fair. It was a 15-boat race around the Isle of Wight and was called the "Hundred-Pound Cup." The British later renamed it in honor of the winner, which was the schooner "America." If the boat had been named "Emerald," I suppose it would be the "Emerald Cup"?

Mary, I believe you mean the 100 Guinea cup.

Mary and all:

The cup was actually known as the 100 Guinea Cup....

In 1848, Queen Victoria authorized the creation of a "One Hundred Guinea Cup" of solid silver (134oz), 27" tall for a yacht race "open to all nations."
In 1851 one American boat challenged 16 English ships. The Royal Yacht "Squadron" of Cowes, England was the host. The New York Yacht Club entry was the schooner "America." W.H. Brown, the designer, was so confident of his design that he refused payment if "America" did not win. The oft-quoted remark by the Queen was sparked by a great lead and victory around the Isle of Wight over the 16 other yachts. She asked, "Who is first?" "America" has won, she was told. "Who was second," asked the Queen? The reply still echoes - "Your Majesty, there is no second."

In 30 defenses since then, the interplay of national pride, giant egos, wide-ranging brilliant designs, and now modern technology, have kept the cup very much alive. The 132 years of successful defense by the New York Yacht Club remains the longest record in sports history. Sir Thomas Lipton tried for 31 years to win The Cup, commencing in 1899. From schooners, to J-boats, to 12 meters to the current IOAC designs, men's brains, wits, skills and money have been locked in sea-swept combat.





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Historical Chronology 1851 "America"
1870 "Cambria, the British challenger loses against 14 New York Yacht Club yachts in New York Harbor
1871 New York Yacht Club used two yachts (allowed for the last time) & defeated the English boat "Livonia"
1876 Madeleine defeats the Countess of Dufferin
1877 Canada joins battle, loses 2-0
1881 Canada encore loses 2-0
1885 Centerboard cutter "Puritan" wins over England's "Genesta" 2-0
1886 Another "Burgess" design for the New York Yacht Club "Mayflower" bests England's "Galatea" 2-0
1887 A "hat trick" for "Burgess"; his third win, "Volunteer" wins over Scotland's "Thistle" 2-0
1893 A truly great design, Nat Herreshoft creates "Viligant" and wins 3-0 against "Valkyrie"
1895 "Defender," another Herreshoft, defeats the Earl of Danraven again
1899 Sir Thomas Lipton's "Shamrock" loses to "Columbia" 3-0
1901 "Columbia" 3-0 over "Shamrock II"
1903 16,000 sq.ft. of sail on the Herreshoft designed "Reliance" triumphs over Lipton's "Shamrock III"
1920 The First World War and other events left a gap in challenges until Lipton, on "Shamrock IV" raced against Herreshoft's last Cup boat "Resolute", losing 3-0
1930 The great boats of the J-Class series debut with masts as tall as 165 ft. and over 80 ft. in length. Vanderbilt's "Enterprise" meets Lipton's "Shamrock V" in Newport, R.I., winning 4-0
1937 Ranger beats Endeavour II
1958 - 1987 The 12 meter boats dominate
1958 "Columbia" over England's "Sceptre" 4-0
1962 Australia challenges with Alan Payne's "Gretel" losing 4-1 to Weatherly
1964 "Constellation" swamps England 4-0
1967 Australia's "Dame Pattie" loses to Sparkman's and Stephen's "Intrepid" 4-0
1970 The introduction of the multiple challenger concept. "Gretel II" defeats "France I," and Sweden's "Sveridge" to challenge
1974 Dennis Conner as helmsman on "Courageous" beats "Intrepid" to defend. "Courageous" defeats Alan Bond's Australian boat "Southern Cross" 4-0
1977 Ted Turner's "Courageous" 4-0 over "Australia" that had defeated "Gretel II," "France I," and Sweden's "Sveridge" to challenge
1980 "Freedom" with Conner defeats Turner and Russell Long, then historic win over Bond's "Australia" 4-1
1983 The stage was set. The "winged keel" helped Australia to wrest The Cup from the New York Yacht Club after 132 years as "Australia II" won 4-3 over the New York Yacht Club's "Liberty". The Cup goes to Perth
1987 A true world match: 13 challengers, six from the United States. "Stars and Stripes" from the San Diego Yacht Club with a Conner-Burnham team slamming the "Kookaburra", Australia's defender, in four straight
1991
1992

1995
The Cup resides in New Zealand after 1991
The Cup comes back to the United States with Bill Koch aboard America 3.

Peter Blake and company out sailed all in 1995 returning The Cup to New Zealand.

The rest of the story is current news and most of you probably know it