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05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - #49440
05/17/05 02:11 PM
05/17/05 02:11 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Mission
For people of good will to race together for the enjoyment of the sport in accordance with the Racing Rules of Sailing and in the spirit of rule #2 of fair sailing under ISAF rules –To compete within recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

Intent
To race 20-ft catamarans of various design features as a fleet on a first across the finish line wins basis, both in around-the-buoys and distance racing.

Amendments
We wish to keep the rules as simple as possible and rely on the good intent of sailors in accordance with standard safety requirements per sailing rules, required gear, and class principles as stated. Amendments per majority vote of active class members.

Formula 20 Class Rules.

LENGTH - 20 ft one inch maximum (Stern to bow measurement)
BEAM - 8.5 ft –max.hull W L measurement at rest
WEIGHT –MIN boat wt 385 LBS
SAIL AREA – –> MAINSAIL = 210 sq/ft including mast, 53 sq/ft jib, and 270 sq/ft spin


*All measurements per standard current ISAF measurement rules
Roller furlers and main reef points may be used.
All teams to use the same set of sails for a regatta or distance race, but may be replaced if severely damaged to allow a team to continue racing with the permission of race organizers per event racing instructions.
Mainsails are to be within measurement and pattern of, or identical to existing I-20 mains -
All sails are to be commercially available to any and all sailing teams min one month before an event or sails may not be used for that event.
Existing class cat designs will be accepted as listed per mfg. or sailmaker.
Racing will be on the honor system, but any boat may be challenged and checked along with the protesting party also being checked for weight and sail area compliance.


CREW – One or more may be crew. All must be capable of righting from a capsize.

CREW WEIGHT -A class min of 320 Lb. Weight may be carried by lighter teams to meet minimum weight requirements.
BOAT WEIGHT -fully rigged with all attached gear and sails
MASTS May be of aluminum and/or carbon fiber or combinations of non conducting materials in standard section tapered or uniform.
A Max 32 ft length
With-standard wire rigging in any configuration

HULLS - Any standard material or configuration
BOARDS - Any standard material or configuration
RUDDERS– Any standard material or configuration
SPIN POLES –A maximum 14 foot length may be used made of any material in standard configuration with snuffer configuration of any type.
CLASS EMBLEM - The starboard side of the mainsail MAY carry the Open -Formula-20 logo of racing Formula 20s along with individual sail number for scoring purposes.


Dispensation
Older existing designs may be given dispensation per F-20 committee by owners request in design feature trade offs.
Example = an existing heavier mast rig and standard class smaller mainsail in compensation for larger spin area, again only applied to older existing designs per owners request.


Last edited by sail6000; 05/17/05 02:19 PM.
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Re: 20 ft cats [Re: sail6000] #49441
05/17/05 05:24 PM
05/17/05 05:24 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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4 catamarans are currently F-20 -The Inter 20 -F-20 Storm -UK -- Ventilo 20 -8.3 beam 385LB version and Hobie Fox -
Several others are US Formula 20 compliant per dispensation or can be modified up to max specs.
The Nacra 6/0 w NE kite -Hobie 20 -Mystere 6/0 -
PLUS ANY 20FT range cat could be modified to fit the US FORMULA 20 rule as proposed ,-ARC 21 coverted to 20 ft L -
the P-19 - Several other EXISTING 20s could also race F-20 provided they comply by meeting standard Length Beam Weight and sail areas as specified which are all identical and based on the US version Inter 20s specifications .

UK Catsailors site has this link to Formula 20 racing
http://www.catamaran.co.uk/IF20/IF20.htm

It would be great to have some of the past UK and Euro teams enter next years Tybee 500 AS WELL as THE aussie teams already committed plus numerous US sailors now sailing -racing Hobies -N-6/0S -Mysteres -H-Foxes -and Arc SC 20S --P-19s plus others .
These added potential cats in Formula 20 ACCOMODATE a broad spectrum and class of 20 sailors that include potential factory and dealer involvement in the event and in larger context ,-more in the sport of catamaran racing just as F-18 has helped accomplish as per now accepted Formula 18 Tiger and Nacra F-18S plus NUMEROUS OTHERS -.
Formula 20 also similarly consists of an easily recognizable class based on tried and true Formula and box rule concepts of the same LENGTH WEIGHT BEAM AND SAIL AREA as it's basis ,-
sail 6000 -7000-8000--or is it 8500 now
Carl





Re:links to F-20 & 20 ft cats [Re: sail6000] #49442
05/18/05 08:31 AM
05/18/05 08:31 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Re: 05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - [Re: sail6000] #49443
05/18/05 09:17 AM
05/18/05 09:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
EasyReiter Offline
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Excellent!!!

Now all we need is something to identify theses rules as different from the european F20 rules (if they are different) and get a few people to put the class down on their racing forms (like F20-US) and submit it to US Sailing for a portsmouth number, yes this might be counter intuitive however with out a porstmouth number we cannot campain the class in regattas with less than 5 boats or in regattas that are stuck in their old ways of only honoring hobie classes (I have been in a few, 5 inters and 3 hobie 17, no class for the inters but a first second and third for the hobies).

I will do my part on the Gulf coast to move this revolution forward.

Marc (Radical Anti-onedesign Classism activist) I20 #TBA


Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
Re: 05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - [Re: EasyReiter] #49444
05/19/05 10:07 AM
05/19/05 10:07 AM
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i have a really hard time believing that under ANY circumstances, no matter how modified it may be... a hobie 20 would want to race against an I20 on a "first over the line wins" basis.

Not to say it couldn't happen, its just that there are to many years of development difference between the boats.

Re: 05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - [Re: MauganN20] #49445
05/19/05 12:44 PM
05/19/05 12:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
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several of the local Hobie 20 sailors here were willing when I asked them. But these are great sailors and are not so worried about a few seconds of corrected time, they know that in the right conditions they will beat an I 20. there number is 62.4 with just a spin and 62.0 with a square top.
with the I20 at 59.3 you are correct why do it. And the only answer I might guess is why not. If the goal is to sail faster and better than everyone else then what better than to try to sail over the numbers. besides the numbers are calculated not measured, until there is a real number for the hobie 20 w spin and or square top there is no way to say that it is not really faster.


Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
Re: 05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - [Re: EasyReiter] #49446
05/19/05 09:35 PM
05/19/05 09:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Florida & the Keys
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I must agree with Marc. There were many times that I could hang with the I 20's on my H20. Not being an A sailor, they would prevail but the H-20 on it's own is very fast. I had fat head main and spin.


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: 05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - [Re: arbo06] #49447
05/20/05 06:06 AM
05/20/05 06:06 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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A small and biased comment from an outsider (I live in Europe, and sail a Tornado).

Why do you limit the width to 8.5 feet, on a 20 foot boat? I always tought the 2x1 formula for the relationship of lengthXwidth was believed to be ideal for a cat. You also exclude all Tornado's unless they shorten their beams, which I dont believe will happen.

Both tilt trailers and breakdown trailers works, if it's the trailering width you are concerned about.

Re: options [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #49448
05/20/05 12:15 PM
05/20/05 12:15 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi Rolf
thanks for the input and question .
It is difficult to draw a definitive line or limit with intent to Formula classifications on catamarans that historically are intended to improve and develop.-
The excellence of the Tornado design originaly built for ISAF selections in the then B-CLASS basic specs. of 20 ft L 10 ft beam ,-for a catamaran Olympic class, has endured through several decades and still provides a benchmark to comparative cat design performance ,-though often can no longer compete upwind and down with a comperable crew on say a Marstom 20 which it 50 K lighter with improved sail plan -all carbon etc etc .

My interest in a Formula 20 class has been with the intent of application to the Atlantic distance races like the TYBEE 500 http://www.sailmax.biz/

This year we had a Marstom 20 racing along with Inter 20s .
The boat was clearly several percentages faster being much lighter ,-plus sail plan etc etc.
When the crew finally got dialed in it simply walked away at any angle it chose -higher with the kite up -or to weather --no contest .
Perhaps this is the future of the sport and inevitable path as many catsailors love their new lightweight A Class or similar CFR -lighter T or Marstom type cat with larger beam and lighter weight .

It seems the TYBEE 500 will be an Inter 20 class event next year ,-my hopes and wishes as expressed are that an open class option remain and would be my preference as I,m in the market for a new boat .

Obstructions to a Formula 20 class as proposed are entrenched brand class racing and excellent brand type nationals events which many racing teams gear towards.-
Performance has excellent boat dealerships and reps that support racing and are really great folks but of course have investment in that particular brand as does each type . Also numerous top sailors in classes have invested huge amounts of time -energy and funds into becomming tops in that particular class -{whichever one } and often remain loyal to that brand only and do not wish to change anything or accept other brands or boats .

Perhaps I,m wrong about Formula and should just accept as per ongoing cycle the elapse of current 20s and their competitive cycle and go the way of so many previous dead boat classes and let Darwins theories take effect .

I hope there are events for the new and the TYBEE 500 has an open class with seperate start in 06 .

best regards -good sailing Rolf ,-the T will always hold a place in high esteem in the catsailing world ,--
no worries mate ,-as the Aussies say
Carl Roberts

Re: 05 proposed Formula 20 rules outline - [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #49449
05/20/05 01:18 PM
05/20/05 01:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 281
Houston, Texas
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There are always exceptions to all rules, With F20 it is my most passionate hope that there will be more boats racing as a class than before. In the last 3 years of racing I have yet to race more than 4 (very recent) boats in my class, I travel over 10,000 miles a year to race but still there is only very recently been a trend towards the I20. There are about 20 Hobie 20s in the region with at least 5 at a time at most regattas. about 4 N 6.0s with one avarage. there are almost no Tornados at any of the regattas I have been to in 3 years. (one at one race). So excluding such a small minority is not much of an issue. (I have not seen a Tornado entered in the Tybee,or atlantic 1000 but I might have missed the one or two that have.) maybe there could be a F20ht class. But one thing at a time for me.
As far as europe and the world vs. the US. well if we get a class going here and it takes off then if anyone wants to come play we can try to work them in at the time. but it is an impediment to movement to try to make it work for everyone before it works for us,(not US ).
another issue is the Hobie 21,(with HS) I think it could and should race F20 but then again that would be up to the skipper if he wanted to shed the numbers advantage.


Marc Reiter I 20 #861 Dikes, Ferries and Tramps. www.texascitydike.com
Re: options [Re: sail6000] #49450
05/21/05 05:49 PM
05/21/05 05:49 PM

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Carl, I admit I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that in order for this thing to fly, the I20 is the key. It seems to be currently the benchmark in terms of performance, price and current fleet size. Defining the rule to include a wide range of different 20' boats is fine as far as promoting inclusiveness and so on is concerned. However I think what you will ultimately want to achieve is a situation where manufacturers other than Performance are motivated to produce boats that can really compete head to head with the I20, yet without having a significant systematic performance advantage that would render the I20 uncompetitive.

In order for this to happen, I think the critical thing is convincing I20 sailors to race (and race organizers to score) on a formula basis. The Tybee situation (as I understand it) where the I20s are scored only as a OD class and the open fleet is everything else (just two boats this year), seems to me to be heading in exactly the wrong direction.

My guess is that in order for I20 sailors (and I'm not one, so others are welcome to contradict me) to want to be scored as F20, they would need to be convinced that the formula regulates performance determining factors to a degree that the I20 represents somewhere pretty close to the best that can be achieved within the formula. If they don't have confidence in that, they would be better off continuing to be scored as just a OD class.

If I20 sailors race as F20, then even if initially they were to actually end up sailing only against other I20s, if the racing is strong enough to attract new sailors into the class, there is a chance that other manufacturers could be motivated to enter the market. And here, of course, is the catch. Is the potential market large enough to support an additional manufacturer? I really don't know, but my suspicion is that the current market may need to grow in order to create a viable business proposition. And that would probably require at least some energetic promotional effort by people committed to the formula concept.

My impression is that the F20 rule as you've proposed it is rather more open than say the F18 or F16 rules. For that reason, I wonder whether it really limits performance adequately to that of the I20 (I also note that your max. mainsail area is 9% above that of the I20). If it doesn't, then it may need some extra work. It would be interesting to get input from people involved in framing the F18 and F16 rules to understand the thought process they went through in determining how to regulate their classes.

I believe that getting I20 sailors to race as F20 is an essential first step. It also follows, of course, that you also need to convince people to organize races on that basis. I don't know whether that presents a challenge or not. However perhaps the Great Lakes race you proposed a while back could be a place to start.

Mark.

Re: options [Re: ] #49451
05/21/05 09:31 PM
05/21/05 09:31 PM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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Hi Mark

Really appreciate your well thought comments , believe you are correct about I-20 sailors ,-but the largest contingent of sailors in NA is still in the Hobie classes ,-it would be great to have those numbers interested in 20s join in along with the other % in I-20s and other % in misc boats as listed .

One confusing aspect is the US inter 20 was not built to the EU Formula 20 rule ,as the Hobie FOX is,--it has 15 more sq ft in the main than listed having a larger sq top . It also is much lighter weighting a listed 390 ,though some have weighed their I-20s at 385 LBS ,--so that is the reason in the proposed rules for the sq ft sail and 385 boat weigh ,--to match the current I-20 in all regards .
The only other aspect needed is an added rule for mast spin tang location on the 32 ft mast that would limit spin luff dimension ,-AND will add that so all spins are approx the same size ,though older existing unchanged heavier boats may use the larger spin size as per 6/0 ,--though proven not as fast as the I-20 ,--this mainly due to spin luff dimension and the extra area in less effective overlap area.

The current US I-20 {{{ONE DESIGN}}?? has several different spin shapes now -I count 4 ,the earlier ones being much flatter,-I have one which is not competitive at all and noticably slower ,--The new current crop of mainsails look different than the earlier ones , the new I-20 mid-pole snuffer system looks like a big improvement --there are at least 4 different jib configurations now -battened --non bat --self tacking -non etc .The new shaped and sized rudders seem a big improvement ,and think most newer boats have adjusted rigging to rake the mast aft further which helps load the larger rudders and helps balance and improves downwind performance ,--What is left of a {{one design}} --maybe hull shape ,-- most comprehend that is not a huge factor in total boat speed performance . It seems an easy step from there to Formula concepts which work so well for F-18 .

I hope for the INTER and all 20 ft boats sake that a Formula 20 class will evolve based on the I 20 specs in some similar form as proposed ,--If not it seems the boats are nearing the end of their competitive cycle and will go the way of so many other dead boat classes .-
If the Formula 20 concept does not take this year my personal preference will be to purchase a lightweight larger beam 20 and get ahead of the curve towards new boat classes ,--possibly a LIGHTWEIGHT HT fORMULA 20 of newer lighter boat types .--It is either one or the other this season .

Re: non intended comments -clearification [Re: sail6000] #49452
05/22/05 10:17 AM
05/22/05 10:17 AM
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sail6000 Offline OP
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On rereading the O D comments the written word on a partial abbreviated subject in sub context is sometimes misleading due to incompleteness and always seems more harsh than ever intended ,- my appologies to Performance cats ,-the Inter 20 is a great cat that has evolved by trial and error with numerous improvements over its 6 year existance,-Ive sailed it in most all the Atlantic coast 1000 mile and TYBEE 500 mile races and on the NACRA 6/0 PREVIOUS TO THAT --8 now ,-the Inter has at times ,evan in those sometimes extreme conditions and extreme distances of up to 120 N miles ,-HAS BEEN A JOY TO SAIL .
The great advantage of Formula racing as per F-18 example is the potential for a much larger pool of boats and sailing teams to compete on an equal basis, and also the great evolution of boat improvement within the context of fair equal rules as exemplfied per Hobie F-18 TIGER and NACRA F-18 currently.
The sincerest form of flattery is duplication ,--as the saying goes ,--that is the intent of this FORMULA 20 rule ,-to duplicate the basic specifications and design measurements based on the Inter 20 model , and allow all other similar L B W and S A {sail area} boats to modify to that max. specification and optimize their boat for these sometimes very grueling tests of boats and sailing skill on the often unforgiving test track called the Atlantic Ocean and more specifically EASTERN SEABOARD of the continental US .

On the distance race on the GREAT LAKES ,
-We have had 2 day distance races in past years with great success ,-we had Hobie 20s Mysteres ,Inter 20s Tornados etc show and all be very competitive,-In subsequent years we published a NOR for a 4 day event in 03 ,-STAN and ERIC in CRAM were the main volunteers to run the event ,-I hoped to race it ,-only 2 entered and it was cancelled by CRAM.
IT WOULD BE WONDERFULL to get a distance race going on the GREAT LAKES ,-a race sponsor ,-numerous TYBEE 500 teams ,-media coverage ,-perhaps a purse or prize money to help all teams ,--
someday --though perhaps it will be my 3 sons racing in it ----ever the optimist -
Carl



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