Sounds like an SC20TR to me...

thom

In heavy stuff I would go with the SC20. It will take alot more abuse than a T and with the 12' beam its more forgiving.

thom

I disagree, it strongly depends on wind speed. I do not have any experience with the M18 but, I have watched A-Class against Cat 1 18 sq for 3 years and have sailed in it for 1 year.

Upwind:

The A-class has an advantage in very light wind


The A-class has an advantage from the point the A's fly a hull until the 18 sq starts to trap. From that point until the A's can't control it's even. After that the 18 sq's have the advantage.

Downwind.

It's even until the A's go wild. After that the A's are faster until it's too scary to wild thing (I have never seen an 18 sq go wild.)


This has been an gradual development. When the A's first appeared in my area 4-5 years ago, the 18 sq was faster. But, the A-class skippers have been getting faster mostly due to improved techniques

All of this depends on the skipper having enough experience to sail the optimum course for wind and wave.

Does anyone now of web-sites where I can find info about the Supercat 20 and the CFR 20?

Seriously? I've seen more SC20's have fitting and hull failures than Tornados (I can recount three critical SC20 issues - 2 hulls peeling up at the shrouds and one beam/hull retainer pin failure). However, to keep that in perspective, the SC20s that suffered damage had a good bit of age on them.

With regard to websites, you'll have a hard time finding much on the CF20 as it is pretty much a custom one-off that they're working the bugs out of. You can find out more about the Supercats at www.aquarius-sail.com

Is the ARC-21 the same cat as the Supercat 20? - 'Cause I did not find any info on the Supercat 20 at "aquarius-sail.com".

Nope, The ARC 21 is the same as an ARC 21.

Designer
Roberts / Haberman

Specifications

LOA: 21' 6" (6.55 m)
LWL: 21 ' 3" (6.48 m)
Spar: 33' 0" (10.06 m)
Beam: 8 ' 6" (2.59 m)
Draft, Rudders only: 2 ' 5" (0.74 m)
Draft, Board down: 4 ' 3" (1.30 m)
Minimum Weight: 400 lbs. (181.44 kg)
Maximum Sail Area: 282 sq. ft. (26.20 m2)

Mine weighs 417

No the ARC21 is a different boat. The CFR20 is a one of a kind as far as I know. There is one CFR20 being sailed in FL. The SC20 Tall Rig or SC20TR is different from a standard SC20 only in the sail and mast plan. The difference is huge and the SC20 is a totally different animal than the SC20TR.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

It all depends on what the hull number is. If its below 84 you probably have a bullet proof boat made by the original Roberts/Edmunds crew. These boats weighed within about 1/2 lb of each other with 25lbs of gelcoat on each hull. After the sale the quality control was out of Roberts hands and some hulls weighed much more than the other. When Haberman took over the quality came back. I sanded down my #57 to the glass. There were no soft spots/delamination or any other problems. I know a guy with a 1984 Sc20Tr which has both as you mentioned.

Its just a matter of intent of who is building the boat. I believe to this day some of the original guys would have never let one out the door that wasn't almost perfect.

I bought a SolCat 18 that didn't survive the first sail. Soft spots, loose daggerboat construction, caused the boat to literally sink to below the surface. The shop I bought it from gave me a new boat [see pic] that I sailed until I bought my Tornado US498.

The SC boats were designed to survive the Atlantic Ocean not just a bay or lake. I have had two of the original SC20s that were true strong boats that went through the surf and waves as well as any boat I have had. I know my ARC22 won't take what my SC20 will because its designed for light air while the SC20 is designed for it all...

thom

Yeah and you would think the T and SC20TR would have a DPN in the same time zone.

SuperCat 20 TR, Unmod n/s SC20H 63.8 67.1 65.0 63.6 59.8

Tornado (Int.) 2-Trap spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 57.9 55.5

So which is it, is the SC really fast with gift DPN, or a dog compared to the T?

How does the ARC21 end up at 61.5 with 8'6" beam? Even if you give up the spi you are at 62.3....

2004 TABLE OF NORTH AMERICAN PORTSMOUTH NUMBERS
AND WIND DEPENDENT HANDICAPS
MULTIHULL CLASSES
June 2004

Changes are indicated in blue


MULTIHULL CLASSES USSA DPN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
*************************** CODE BN 0-1 BN 2-3 BN 4 BN 5-9
18m2 (Cat.1 Open) 18SM-1 63.9 68.4 65.2 63.7 58.0
18m2 (Cat.2 incl 11' Nacra 5.5 18SM-2 67.1 69.0 67.0 66.5 64.0
A Class Cat A-C 65.0 70.1 65.8 64.4 61.5
A Class Cat >200# all-up A-C2 70.1 72.9 71.1 69.0 66.3
Antrim 30+ Tri ATM30 64.5 (63.0)
ARC 17 w/spi ARC17 (70.0)
ARC 21 w/spi ODR ARC21 61.5 [65.3] 62.2 [61.1] [58.0]
ARC 22 ODR/SC22 spi ARC22 57.0 60.4 57.7 57.0 55.3
Catnip A-Class CN (74.1) [80.0] (74.9) [73.4] [69.0]
CFR20 Uni carbon w/spi CFR20 58.4 62.0 59.7 58.4 57.5
Dart 18 Sloop, 2-up D18 76.9 82.8 80.8 76.9 71.1
Dart 18 Uni (1-up) D18U 78.5 85.1 82.0 78.5 72.2
Dart 20 D20 72.4 76.0 75.0 72.9 66.2
Dingo DINGO 81.1 87.3 83.5 80.5 74.1
F-24 Tri Mk I All Sails F-24 76.0 79.9 77.2 75.6 74.3
F-24 Tri Mk II All Sails F-242 74.3 77.6 75.3 74.0 72.0
F-25C Tri Carbon All Sails F-25C 62.3 67.5 64.7 62.7 58.0
F-27 Formula All sails F-27F 68.5 71.9 69.0 66.7 65.1
F-27 Tri All Sails F-27 70.5 72.6 73.0 71.0 65.7
F-28 Tri Stock Main&Jib F-28 66.6 70.6 68.2 67.2 63.9
F-28R Tri All Sails F-28R 64.6 67.8 66.2 64.6 61.3
F-31 Tri Stock Main&Jib F-31 66.2 72.0 68.2 68.1 66.2
F-31R Tri All Sails F-31R 62.1 65.4 64.2 62.5 59.9
Formula 16 Sloop spi F16 66.9 70.3 68.4 65.4 63.1
Formula 16 Uni 1-up spi F16U 67.6 71.5 70.0 67.3 64.4
Formula 18 Sloop spi F18 62.5 66.4 64.1 61.8 59.3
Formula 18HT Uni 2up spi F18HTU 59.7 63.4 61.0 60.5 57.3
G-Cat 5.0 Turbo S.Hand, reacher G5.0-3 (72.2)
G-Cat 5.0m G5.0 76.0 82.4 78.4 76.0 69.9
G-Cat 5.7m G5.7 72.7 78.0 74.8 72.0 66.2
Hirondelle 24 HRD24 [95.1] [95.1]
Hobie 14 H14 86.5 95.1 90.2 85.6 81.3
Hobie 14 Turbo (1-up) H142 83.1 86.4 85.1 81.1 79.4
Hobie 16 H16 76.1 81.7 78.7 74.1 71.6
Hobie 16 Trapseat H16TS [78.0]
Hobie 17 (1-up) H17 74.1 78.5 76.3 73.7 69.5
Hobie 17 Sport Sloop, 2-up H17P 74.5 78.0 74.8 74.0 71.5
Hobie 18 & 18 Magnum TheMightyHobie18 71.4 76.9 73.5 69.6 66.8
Hobie 18 Formula H18F 71.6 78.5 73.2 71.0 66.2
Hobie 20 Miracle H20 64.9 69.4 66.4 64.2 61.3
Hobie 21 no spi H21 67.1 71.9 69.2 66.4 61.7
Hobie Dragoon 2-3crew no spi HDRG [83.0] [87.5] [84.7] [82.8] [81.5]
Hobie Fox w/spi HFOX 60.6 63.7 61.7 60.5 58.0
Hobie FX-One 1-up no spi HFX1U [71.2] [74.5] [73.0] [71.2] [69.1]
Hobie Getaway HGET 82.4 [87.5] 85.1 [81.1] [80.0]
Hobie SX-18 spi H18SX 70.7 75.6 73.1 70.1 65.3
Hobie Tiger F18 spi HF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Hobie Tiger ODR spi HTIG 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Hobie Wave HWAV 92.4 96.0 93.2 90.4 90.1
Isotope (Sloop, 1-up) ISTP 74.2 78.9 74.3 73.8 68.1
Isotope (Sloop, 2-up) ISTP-2 (77.1) [82.5] (78.4) [76.7] [70.8]
Javelin 18HT Uni 2-up spi JF18HTU 59.7 [63.4] 61.0 [60.5] [57.3]
Loka (A Class) LOKA 76.2 [80.3] (78.0) [75.5] [71.0]
Malibu Outrigger MAOT [79.0]
Marstrom M-20 carbon w/spi M20 56.5 60.1 58.2 56.5 53.6
Mystere 4.3 Sloop 1-2 Crew spi M4.3 S 78.4 83.8 81.9 77.9 75.7
Mystere 5.0 1-Trap M5.0 (76.1)
Mystere 5.0 XL, 2-up M5.0XL 75.5 [80.0] (77.4) [75.0] [69.0]
Mystere 5.5 8.5' Sloop M5.5 66.2 70.9 68.8 65.7 61.9
Mystere 6.0 M6.0 63.9 68.6 66.6 64.2 61.2
Mystere 6.0XL & 6.0XL w/wing M6.0XL 64.0 69.0 66.8 63.6 60.2
Mystere Twister F18 spi MF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Nacra 4.5/450 Turbo 1-up N450T 76.9 80.4 79.6 77.0 74.4
Nacra 5.0 (2-up) N5.0 [76.4] [80.7] [79.0] [76.5] [73.0]
Nacra 5.2 (2-up) N5.2 72.1 78.1 74.8 71.4 66.4
Nacra 5.5 (11'Beam) See: 18SM-2
Nacra 5.5 8.5' Sloop N5.5 67.4 73.9 69.4 65.5 61.2
Nacra 5.5 8.5' Uni N5.5U 69.7 74.8 72.0 69.3 64.5
Nacra 5.7 (2-up) N5.7 72.3 75.5 74.9 72.2 68.6
Nacra 5.8 No.Amer. N5.8NA 66.2 70.7 68.3 65.6 61.3
Nacra 5.8 Orig.(2-up) N5.8 66.5 72.1 69.1 65.6 61.0
Nacra 500 (2-up) N500 76.0 80.3 78.6 76.2 72.6
Nacra 570 (2-up) N570 70.2 76.0 73.7 71.2 64.3
Nacra 6.0 New Eng. 350 spi N6.0NE (60.3) [63.4] [62.0] [60.1]
Nacra 6.0 No.Amer. N6.0NA 62.7 65.9 64.1 61.7 59.6
Nacra 6.0 Orig. N6.0 64.4 69.7 66.0 63.4 59.8
Nacra Inter 17 Uni 28' NI17U 73.2 75.7 75.0 73.2 71.0
Nacra Inter 17R Uni 30' spi NI17R 66.7 69.0 68.5 66.7 65.1
Nacra Inter 18 spi NI18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Nacra Inter 20 spi NI20 59.2 62.4 60.2 58.5 57.3
Nacra Inter F18 Sloop spi NF18 62.5 66.4 64.1 62.0 59.3
Pixel 23 Sloop Outrigger PIX23 [80.9]
Prindle 15 P15 76.4 81.7 78.4 75.8 72.1
Prindle 16 P16 77.5 84.2 80.6 76.3 71.3
Prindle 18 P18 74.9 81.3 77.4 74.6 69.0
Prindle 18-2 P182 68.9 72.4 71.7 68.5 64.8
Prindle 19 P19 66.4 71.7 68.8 64.5 61.3
Prindle 19MX P19MX 64.4 69.5 66.5 63.8 61.0
RC-27 spi 41.5' mast All Sails RC-27X 56.0 (60.7) (57.6) [55.8] (52.0)
RC-27 spi 44' mast All Sails RC-27 55.4
RC-30 spi 45' cbn All Sails RC-30 53.4 55.5 54.0 52.3 50.2
Sea Spray 15 (Sea Moth) SPY15 78.1 86.0 80.9 76.3 72.0
Shark SK 73.0 77.1 75.5 73.3 68.1
Sol Cat 15 SOL15 79.9 (81.1)
Stiletto 23 (3-Up) STL23 65.0 70.5 67.5 65.3 61.3
Stiletto 27 STL27 75.1 80.0 76.9 75.4 69.5
Stiletto 27 Race All Sails STL27R (64.7)
Stiletto 30 STL30 67.5 [72.9] 70.1 [69.3] [65.3]
SuperCat 15 SC15 78.4 84.0 79.7 78.0 71.2
SuperCat 17 SC17 73.3 79.6 76.6 71.9 67.0
SuperCat 19 SC19 69.0 74.1 72.2 68.1 62.6
SuperCat 19X & 19XL SC19X 66.5 72.1 68.6 66.5 61.2
SuperCat 20 SC20 65.0 70.5 67.4 65.2 59.8
SuperCat 20 (TR, Unmod) SC20H 64.4 67.1 65.3 63.6 58.8
Taipan 4.9 Sloop no spi T4.9 68.3 72.9 70.8 67.5 64.9
Taipan 4.9 Uni no spi T4.9U 69.9 73.8 71.7 69.9 66.6
Taipan 4.9/F16 Sloop spi TF16 66.9 70.3 68.4 65.4 63.1
Taipan 4.9/F16 Uni 1-up spi TF16U 67.6 71.5 70.0 67.3 64.4
Taipan 5.7 Sloop w/spi T5.7 60.7 66.0 63.0 61.2 58.0
Tornado 1-Trap no spi TORN2 63.8 67.0 65.6 63.1 60.6
Tornado (Int.) 2 Trap & spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 58.1 55.5
Trac 14 TRC14 84.5 (90.5) 86.9
Trac 16 TRC16 76.3 82.1 80.8 76.0 69.9
Unicorn (A Class) UC-A 75.2 81.3 76.5 73.6 69.0
WindRider 16 Tri WR-16 [81.9]
WindRider 17 Tri WR-17 [80.0]
WindRider Rave Formula WRAVF [76.5]
WindRider Rave OD scrchr WRAV2 [76.5]
WindRider Rave OD Tri WRAV [77.0]

Ding; You are comparing SC 20TR base rating(no spin, pin head main) to that of the optimized Tornado. Hence, a big rating difference. If we add the spin and square top mods to the SC 20TR, I think the numbers get alot closer. Still, light to medium air, the SC 20 TR rating is gravy. Heavy air, and I think the T's rating is pretty sweet. Anyway, who said portsmoth rating/racing is fair?

It all really depends on whose sailing the boat...

thom

What are the specs on the SC 20 TR?

20 LOA, 12'beam, 360sq ft main/jib, don't know what the spin size for certain but I think its around 600sq ft. and approximately 475lbs. Roberts said its the same boat basically as the ARC22 just 2 feet shorter. I believe the masts are different regarding spreaders and prebend.

thom

I must have missed the multiplier for that one.

Good point on the numbers:

SuperCat 20 TR, spin and squr top mn SC20H 60.9 64.3 62.1 60.7 57.5

Tornado (Int.) 2-Trap spi TORN 59.0 62.7 60.5 57.9 55.5

Keep in mind the SC20 TR finally took a rating hit for 05'.

I have less of an issue with the new SC 20 TR numbers.

The 'T' is the fastest 20 foot multihull in a breeze including the M20, SC 20 TR, Inter 20, N6.0 and the CFR 20. As Jake pointed out there aren't any Eagles in the US yet, but I suspect the Eagle will give the 'T' a run for its money.

The SC 20 TR is NOT a big air boat. It is optimized for light air and is simply out of it's element in a breeze, sooner or later it's stick down hull up.

As for the comment about DPN being fair. I'm sorry have you not met me... I'm David (DPN is a POS) Ingram.

Dave

Sounds like a good sail number:

[color:"red"] DPN za POS [/color]

It seems that this discussion adresses at least 2 different questions:
1. Which boat is the fastest around a race track or on sections of a race track? (disregarding the crew-skill factor)
2. Which boat can reach the highest top speed?
The latter question raises the problem of measurement method. The GPS-method is simple, but Wouter here points out questionable reliability of the method. I suppose the problems orginate from conditions when more than 3 satelites are not received continuously?
My Magellan Meridian color used to produce erronuously high numbers before fixing a bad contact in the power circuit. With a 1-second update period, it now seems to be accuarate all the time, based on comparisons with numbers on my car speedometer (with known rather constant error).

Can anyone give us information on how to get reliable speed data?!

Stein

your name would'nt be steve wiseman would it? but any way i sa il a broken down 17 supercat and on maui i am the fastest so far on maalaea bay maui