A friend and I are having a debate, which may be helped by your practical experiences. He has a Nacra F18, which he capsized last week. He and crew had trouble righting it, we think due to a) some water in the mast and b) more sail area being in the water (new square-top plus the effect of water in the mast pushing more of it under..). He's well built at 210 lbs, so we were debating whether he should stand right at the end of the extended dagger board, in order to get maximum leverage. And furthermore, whether his crew should join him out there (guess at 140lbs). His concern is that the Nacra F18 dagger are long and narrow and don't look quite strong enough for a 210lb gorrilla to bounce at one end.

What do you big guys do if your mast refuses to come up after a dip? Would you stand at the end of the dagger board?

Cheers
Simon

I also have a Nacra F18 and posed this question to Bob at the Performance Catamarans factory on a tour I took there a few months ago. He said that is ok to stand on the daggerboards when righting the boat. I believe he advised against any kind of bouncing.

I was asking the question from the perspective of a solo sailor since I often solo the boat. I did not ask him if 2 people could safely stand on the daggerboards when righting.

I am an even bigger gorilla than your friend. I weigh about 230 pounds, plus the weight of my wetsuit, harness, lifejacket, waterproof Ipod, and VHF radio, gets me up to about 240. I find that I am able to right the boat by myself when its on its side, but it is critical to have the mast pointing upwind, but slightly rotated from straight upwind so that the wind can come under the leading edge of the sail and help to lift the sail out of the water. The less wind, the less help you get. The technique if very similar to waterstarting when windsurfing: you use the wind to help lift you up through proper positioning. If I dont do this, and choose to ignore the angle of the mast & sail to the wind, the leverage of the weight of the water on top of the sail at the end of the mast is tough to overcome. Your friend may not have water in his mast. It might just be poor positioning. I do not normally stand on the daggerboards. Despite Bob's reassurances, I am uncomfortable with the concept and have found it is unnecessary for me and my mass. I have not tried to get right my boat from a turtled position.

As a backup, I do always carry a waterbag with a block and tackle. I did buy and install a Power Pole righting system and was less than excited about it. When it was not being used, it formed a lump in the center of my trampoline I could feel when tacking. The first time I tried to use it, the sheet metal screws used to secure it at its base came out. It is not longer on my boat.

Thanks for the reply - I'll pass your comments on. I was in the the USA a few weeks back and coincidentally needed a new bridle assembly for my Narca 6.0. I guess it would be the same Bob at Performance Cats who helped me out - excellent service: a new assembly was delivered to me within 3 days and that included getting some parts bought in. I hadn't thought of calling him - I think I'll pass on Bob's details as he was very helpful in the past.
Simon.

I think you would do better by fully releasing the downhaul and also (if you didn't do that) completely run out the main traveller even if that means that you have to pull the mainsheet in some. But releasing the downhaul can make a big effect.

Next step would be the power righting methode. In principle you should have to stand on the daggerboard at all with those weights. But the daggerbaord can take pretty big loads, during normal sailing both the daggerboards and wells are subject to about 150 kg sideways loading. They should be able to carry a single person, but I'm still heasitant to stand on them because if you fall of them you can hurt yourself badly.

On monohulls you always stand on the daggerboards when rigthing and although they flex they do take the load.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter - releasing the downhaul will be added to my list of tasks when righting, as well as by F18 sailing friend's.

I didn't understand what you meant by the power righting method.

That got me thinking that I have seen power boats right cats by pulling on the righting line and motoring away (same positioning as above) - especially for cats that are turtled. Something makes me uncomfortable with that, other than in an emergency. I'd expect the sails to be damaged. Would you 'allow' a RIB to roll you back upright before you'd exhausted yourself?
Simon

Many years ago I had my 16ft Condor totally destroyed (broken mast, boom, torn sails, broken battens, holed hull) by an inexperienced RIB driver who tried the method described BUT didn't shut the power off as the boat came up. So instead he accelerated away (the RIB had at least 55Hp on the back) and proceeded to flip the boat back over, fully turtled in shallow water at what seemed like zillions of knots.

Needless to say, nowadays I will only VERY GRUDGINGLY accept help from a rescue boat if it is a case of last resort....

The only problem is that if you release the downhaul completely, your mainsail can unhook at the top and come crashing down after righting. Hoisting and hooking the main back in can be a real pain when on the water. (I found out the hard way)

I use one of these to quickly disconnect the mainsheet from the sail/boom:

In that case run the downhaul out just shy of fully detensioned. I personally have never had the mainsail unhook on me.

But then again I pretension my downhaul system. Meaning that even when both cleats are completely released the travel length of the downhaul itself it limited to a state that still put some tension on the luff. This is handy on a spi boat. The pretension setting is just enough to get the wrinkles out when there when the mainsheet it only mildly tensioned (= downhill setting in light to medium winds)

Wouter

While I do not have personal experience with this method, I read in a catamaran book that the best way to use a power boat to right a turtled beach cat was to tie the rope to the base of the mast, bring that rope directly aft over the trampoline (the rope goes on same side of the tramp you are now standing on). Then standing at the stern of the boat to help submerge it, the power boat pulls the cat so that the sterns goes down and the bows pull up and over. This method avoids having the tow rope touch your fragile hulls. It made a lot of sense to me.

spfechner:

Seems as though that method would not be very kind the the delicate instruments in the back of the boat, the rudders, castings, gudeons and transoms. I imagine that it would be akin to being swept backwards by a wave. I have seen alot of pieces in the back breaking from that event.

Later,
Dan

I think you raise a good point. The rudders and associated hardware are not designed for going backwards. Maybe if the rudders are largely out of the water and pointing straight up at the start, and one is able to get the back of the tramp to plow down into the water, the stresses would be short lived.

I guess the real question is what is the best way to right a boat with a power boat? Which system puts the least stress or risk of damage on your boat? I know you can damage your hulls if the rope comes across the side and you incorrectly pull with a power boat.

I really don't know...(but am unafraid to speculate).

Steve

As others have said, not a good plan. Will destroy your rudders and if the boat does not come up instantly then the mainsail will start to "fill" underwater and put a massive strain on the mast etc.

I've been involved in righting a Tornado in Southampton water when it was starting to get dark (I was standing off in another Cat.

Boat had gone turtle and even with 4 people on board we could not right it (non sealed mast); luckly the UK tordado Chairman was around and had a RIB.

1, Take tow rope from RIB to the Boat, over the top hull and loop around (twice in this case I think)the mast and then back over the hull to one person who then holds it (so that it can be released if the need arises). Also ensure there are two people on the RIB; one driving and one with the other end of the rope (again around a few turns so the rope can be dumped from either end)



2, Move all the weight back onto the leaward hull (as per notmal "right from turtle procedures") and use the RIB to assis [color:"red"]VERY SLOWLY [/color]. With time the boat with the extra pull (GENTLE) will right to capsized. The crew then may be able to right it them selves, in our case this was not so as the mast was full of H2O.

3, Now the RIB will need to be moving a little faster as the boat is on it's side will be much easier to pull (You MUST ensure that the dagger/centre boards are [color:"red"] UP [/color] as when the boat does right it's self it will have some sideways motion.

At this point the Rope man on the RIB and on the boat are critical as as soon as the boat is starting to come up towards upright you must stop the RIB and/or dump the tow as the boat needs to slow the sideways movement (this will actually assist it righting it as well) before it is upright (hence raiding the plates so that if the boat does not trip (sideways) on the pleates and right too quickly.

I've been fortunate enough to never completely turtle my cat, but like anyone I have thought about the "what if" scenarios.
Would it be possible to hoist/lower a PFD with the Spi halyard so that it acts like a Bob pushing the mast up?

no no no...the original post is correct. To right a turtled catamaran with power assistance (or 40' trimaran for that matter) is to tow it backwards in the water while inverted. This allows the boat to come up like a porpoise. If you try to tow it with the tow boat pulling the boat forward (from the bows) as the boat tries to right, the sails will spread catching water and resisting righting with MUCH force. If you tow the boat backwards (with the tow line coming from the mast post over the trampoline and past the sterns), the sails will only momentarily fill just before the boat begins to rotate upwards. Then they will fall inline allowing the boat to roll upwards. If it works for 40' trimarans it should work well for cats. I've seen a righting attempt on a Supercat 20 towing from the bows that resulted in much damage.

Whose Super20???
Allan Bruce would hate this comment, Jake.
Back to the original backwars tow from Turtle, it works gerat as jake said, I've had it used on my Nacra 5.5 and my Tiger, both came up quickly with NO problems.
CARY

I found the passage in the book I mentioned. Its actually in the book "Catamaran Racing For The 90's", by this bulletin board's very own Rick White (and Mary Wells). I found the book to be very informative and would recommend it...even if we are now in the 00's.

Hi Jake, Wouter, etal,

I've been following this conversation so that in the event my F17 ever goes turtle on me, I'll be some what prepared. Couple things still aren't clear. The scenario is the boat is completely upside down. Probably some pretty good waves are sloshing over the tramp. The following is the sequential process I think your suggesting, but I want to be sure. 1.) You say to tie the righting line onto the mast. Doesn't that mean that the righting line from the rescue boat has to be tied onto the mast post (the rod that holds the mast ball)? And that puppy is now under water, right? 2.) To do this, I've got to hold my breath, dive under the tramp, tie on the righting line to the mast post, and then loosen both downhaul lines, swim aft and uncleat both the traveler and the main sheet. I hope the water isn't forty degrees. 3.) Then I take the submerged, secured line, and throw it forward, up and over the dolphin striker and let it flop onto the bottom of the tramp (now facing upwards). 4.) Then I swim around to the stern, grab the line, pulling it tight and position it, midway bewteen the two hulls with their upward pointing dagger boards and rudders. 5.) Then I clamber up out of the water and stand on the end most part of one of the hulls to assist the rear of the boat to sink as much as possible (which on my boat will be a zero response). 6.) I suppose to help keep my balance I can steady myself with the righting line, by then held taut by the rescue vessel, while the boat very slowly applies power. Is this is all correct so far?

Question: Assuming my spinnaker is snuffed when the boat turtles and the only sail up is the main, then for the life of me I can't see why my main sail would ever have any stress on it at all, nor ever "catch water" because the leading edge moving through the water will be the mast itself with the luff firmly locked in the sail track, and the leach flowing straight out behind. The sail will not only never fill, it should slice through the water like a knife--right? And the dagger boards and rudders pose no problem as to preventing the cat from slipping sideways in the water if it needs too, because as the boat begins to raise its' mast it must at some point stop moving forward and begin to pivot on the stern of one of the hulls; at that point the mast will begin to lay over onto its' side more and more as it continues to rise to the surface causing the boat also to begin to tip over on its' side--which is where we want it. Does that all square with what your telling us? A problem comes to mind at this point. It occurs to me that the rescue boat, must as it pulls, keep the righting line absolutely centered between both hulls or the line will move to one side and the cat may start to skid across the water, instead of comming up on its' side. What do you guys think?

Wouter, I can't figure out any advantage to releasing the downhaul, because it seems to me all this will do is allow the sail to "bag" and in so doing create more drag moving through the water than a "flat"sail would, and thereby resist our effort at righting. We would just be creating another problem, and for what purpose? Additionally if the downhaul is even partially released, the sail with all its' weight hanging straight down only has to slide down the sail track one and a half inches and the ring holding the sail head on the mast hook will be released. Boy I don't want to have to get up on my boat, finally righted after a lot of hard grunt work, only to discover now I've got to pull a heavy, wet sail back up onto the hook, all the while bouncing around in heavy water. Plus I hate the thought of swimming around under water with my spinnaker lines, downhaul lines, and mast rotator lines hanging all over the place waiting to get tangled up in. Sounds like a bad dream to me.

Thinking this through, really for the first time, reminds me I don't ever want my boat to turtle. I'm very interested in everyone's thoughts regarding these questions and observations.

Thanks,
Daniel

If the boat is turtled, simply stand on the bottom of the trampoline, reach around the front beam (only your hands need go below the surface of the water) and tie the tow line to the mast post now on the bottom of the front beam. We usually leave our righting line always attached to the mast post anyway.




Actually, I would probably get the hell out of the way while the rescue boat tries to right the catamaran - either by getting ON the rescue boat or jumping into the water and getting at least a boat length away along side. You do NOT need to submerge the sterns. The sails, now underwater, will provide plenty of resistance and cause the boat to pivot upwards. Be sure the rescue boat goes very slowly - it will not take much effort or speed to right the boat.



Actually, the sails will resist the motion provided by the resuce boat and will probalby be out to the side as the boat tries to pull the catamaran backwards through the water. The sails provide the initial resistance through the water until they are free from the water. Then the sterns will submerge enough to provide the resistance to pull the boat the rest of the way upright.



This is a distinct possibility. The rescue boat will need to maneuver slowly and reactively to keep the line centered in the hulls. They will also need to pay attention to the direction of the wind so that there are no surprises once the catamaran is righted.

Really though, all this is a mute point for an I17. As long as your mast is sealed, there is no reason you would need outside assistance to right the turtled boat. If it's turtled, get your righting line and sit on and lean out on the most downwind corner of the hull (whether it is bow or stern). After a few seconds the air in the mast combined with your offset weight will make it want to rise and the boat will, slowly at first, popup to a position on it's side. Then you just right it as normal.

Hey Jake,

Thanks for your thoughts. It amazes me how dumb I can be without applying much effort. It never occured to me that I could stand on the tramp bottom. And they said sailing would make me mentally sharper

Also, I was wondering what you think about loosening the down haul as Wouter suggested? I guess I'm a little skeptical about having an F17 readily pop up over on its' side, from a turtle position, unless you know somebody who's already done it. I weigh 165 dripping wet and don't have enough weight to bring it back up when its' only on its' side. I always uncleat the traveler and main sheet before I even get up on the hull. A number of guys (heavier than me) have also tried and they can't right it either.

The reason I was so interested in this thread to begin with, is because of my inability to get the boat up once it's gone over. It really adversely affects my ability to sail hard because I know if I go over, I'm stuck until someone on the lake comes to my rescue. Especially when I'm downwind I hold the boat back, specifically so I won't pitch pole. Guess I'll have to get my butt in gear and make a water bag. So far I haven't wanted to pay eighty bucks for a couple dollars of materials.

Thanks,
Daniel

Daniel,

No problem! I only know these things because I've put myself into these situations!

While it doesn't hurt to have a backup righting device, I weigh 170lbs and have successfully righted my 399lb F18 (with aluminum mast) by myself on three occasions using only a righting line. I have never failed to solo right my F18 with again, only the righting line. I just get the boat to spin with the wind blowing into the sails and on the top of the trampoline (about 45 degree angle to the bows is the best I can do) then with a small loop tied in the righting line, quickly hook my trapeze harness in so I lie flat (I leave the loop in it) while standing on the tip of the daggerboard. The boat righted quickly all three times. The I17 should be considerably easier with a carbon mast and less boat weight. Seriously, tip it with some people around that can help if needed and get some practice so you will feel more confident that you can right the boat.

Jake,

I know I've got a glich somewhere, cause a couple other guys told me they pop there 18s up by themselves also. I agree with you about boat weight. I'd think a 17 with a carbon mast would be lighter than an 18. But the factory won't say exactly how much their F17s weigh. Others claim the boat is 300 lbs. and then some.

I have done as you suggest and tipped the boat over a hundred feet from shore where I could still wade. Couldn't get it up to save my life. Neither could some of the other guys, who are heavier. I'm thinking the wind was maybe 5 mph or less and possibly to soft to assist. So maybe that's why we couldn't do it during our practice And it's pretty unlikely I'd go over in wind under, maybe 10 mph or so. I've only been over on the 17 twice, both during gybes in high wind and 2 foot waves. I couldn't change the direction of the boat relative to the wind, either by positioning my weight on the end of a hull or by trying to swim the mast tip . The mast was headed dead into the wind and I just wasn't strong enough to fight the wind on either occassion. Like I said it makes me hold back when the wind starts going much past 10, because it's such a hassle waiting for a good hearted boater to come to the rescue. It screws up my learning curve, that's for sure.

Eighteeners are able to push it as hard as they want because they always have enough crew weight to get back up, if their judgement is faulty. That's how I want to sail. But I'm in Minnesota and we don't have much of a racing community here, at least by solo sailers, so there is a dearth of uni experience here. I'm going sailing this afternoon and it's supposed to be blowing pretty steady at 7 to 10 mph. I'll dump it out in the middle of the lake and we'll see what happens.

Adios,
Daniel

Hah ! They wish !

Texel handicap system measured the boat (R version with carbon mast but WITHOUT the spinnaker package) at 151 kg = 333 lbs

And it is the lightest I-17 version of the 4 different version ever measured by the Texel officials.
Follow the link and see for yourself.

Source : http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/numdet1_23-07-05.pdf

During the racing last sunday (championship between us and 2 neighbouring cat clubs) I talked to an I-17 sailor while we both waited for the last boat to come in and restart. He told me that at 75 kg he couldn't right the boat without a righting aid. He said he carried a water bag and a pully system to increase leverage and right the boat. But despite that he felt that he was holding back in the stronger winds because even with the aids it was a hell of a job.

Naturally I mentioned that I use only a righting line and my body weight of 82 kg to right my F16 even when fully rigged for double handed sailing (Spi gear, jib and mainsail). No extra aids. Feels like even less weight will do the job as well.

Point of the story is that you either must get yourself some righting aids (waterbags, shroud extenders, righting pole or garys righting system) or get a boat that is better suited to singlehanded sailing and rigthing (for example an A-cat or a Formula 16).

One other trick is too make sure that your downhaul is fully detensioned before righting. A fully on downhaul makes righting noticeable more difficult. At least it does so on my Taipan F16. Also make sure that you fully run down the main traveller over running out the mainsheet itself.

You can try the power-righting technic where the wind blows on the trampoline from the mastside and thus helps to right the boat but this technic is not always applicable.

Pretty much, and forgive me for saying so, if you start out on a mediocre basis (heavy boat, heavy mast) then there is not that much you can do about it. But try the tricks to see if they work enough to get you back up. If not then trading in your boat for one that is more suited to singlehanding is a glaring preferred solution.

Wouter

Hi Wouter,

Like I said, I've tried to find out how much my boat weighs from Nacra, but they seem kind of evasive, to say the least. As you know the boat is set up for one crew, nonetheless I asked if only one guy could do everything that was necessary to sailing and caring for the boat. The answer was yes. Maybe the right answer is yes, if you weigh enough.

Also the dealer explained to me the chronology of the Inter 17 thru the Inter R17, to the F17 and unless I completely misunderstood, the Inter 17R and the F17 aren't the same boat. So it well may be that Texel did not weigh any F17s. Frankly, I didn't think any F17 had even made it to Europe yet.

Your last paragraph kinda tickled me. I'm new to this forum so I read a lot of it before I posted. I noticed you and some of the guys get into a bit of a tussle now and then. I think if you told some of the other guys they just blew almost fifteen grand on a mediocre boat, even if it does have a carbon mast and other goodies, they might not take it very well It's a little bit like buttering a guy up, and then when he's off guard, shoving a blade in his back. But Wouter really it gave me a good chuckle. I assume stuff gets lost in translation from one language to another. But anway, I'm not quite ready to trade in my boat just yet. It's a 2005 model and I can't afford a new boat every year.

You might be right that I need a water bag, because I'm like your friend. When it starts blowing I hold back, and it irritates me because I want to push it harder. But I've had the same experience as your friend, when I dump on a windy day I might be out of commission for an hour or more. If I could get up in a few minutes I wouldn't care how often I went over. It just wouldn't be a problem; and my rate of improvement would be a lot faster.

Hey before I forget, read what I asked Jake about loosening the downhaul. I'm interested in your thoughts about that. I'm don't get how that would help matters.

Daniel

i don't know if this message will get posted or not but it all depends on the velocity of the winnd and if you can extend tthe upper shroud and have a drag shoot on the nose to cause a weather vain and a 150 lb. man can easily self right the craft!

Howdy Stranger,

I've no idea what you're talking about. How the heck do you extend the upper shroud? What's a drag shoot on the nose?

The dealer told me to swim the front of the hulls into the wind. This will send wind under the sail. Weather vain stuff is great when it's not very windy. But when the wind is blowing the boat very shortly swings the mast directly into the wind. This positions the face of the tramp against the wind. Heck that's more surface area than a jib on a twenty foot boat. No way is a swimmer strong enough to swing a boat around with the "tramp sail" up and filled with wind.

I was pretty naive when I got into sailing, I actually thought the manufacturer would have thought out a whole series of solutions, tips, tuning guide, etc. Color me dumb

Daniel

Popeye,
The boat will drift very fast in strong wind.
The drag shoot acts like a sea anchor to hold the bow of the boat into the wind. You could make it from some spinnaker cloth.
Easing the downhaul allows the sail to drop its built in shape. Apart from helping shed the water a little bit easier, when the boat stands up it is much better behaved and less likely to try to sail off while you are trying to climb aboard.
The same applies sitting in strong wind waiting for a start when you ease the downhaul the boat will settle down and behave itself (stops the main flogging back and forth)while you wait.

Regards,
Phill

YOu will never get a 17 up in the light stuff without assistance / righting pole etc.

I work on the principal that if it's windy enough to capsize F5+ is when I tip it in now and then, it is windy enough to get the wind to help you to get the boat up.

Shroud extenders are available for most boats, although not class legal for racing on some. An extender is an extra loop of cable that attaches to the shroud adjuster and to the lower end of the shroud. If the boat capsizes, you can release the main shroud from the shroud adjuster, and the extender section takes over and you now have a longer shroud, which lets the mast lean over farther and makes the boat easier to right. After the boat is righted, you reattach the shroud itself to your shroud adjuster. (Apparently, there is some quick way of doing all this, and I don't know whether it involves a "fastpin" or what.)

I think all the Supercats come standard with shroud extenders. I have seen them used very effectively for righting a Hobie 17 (although I think not class legal for Hobies).

The reason I have heard for them not being class legal for some classes is the fear that the extra slack in the shroud might cause the mast to jump off its base during the righting process (although I have not personally heard of this happening).

Also, having a drag chute, or drogue, or sea anchor, or whatever you want to call it, that can be quickly deployed from the front of the boat to keep the bows turned into the wind is a great safety feature. Not only does it make it much easier to right the boat, it also slows the drift of the capsized boat if you are going toward rocks or have lost a crew member overboard.

A drogue (sea anchor) could also be used, of course, if you get caught out in an unexpected storm and have to drop your sails and ride it out. The sea anchor can be deployed off either the bow or the stern, depending on whether you want to go with the wind and waves (but slowly) or hold the bows facing into them.

Both of these options are things I would consider having on my boat if I were doing a lot of recreational sailing (or distance racing) where there are not a lot of other boats around to come to my aid.

Daniel,

I think I'll need to amid that I suffer from the condition called "Dutch bluntness". Often things people overhere say whats on their mind although it is never meant to be hurtful. Of course other cultures may and will value it differently.

Most important aspect is that I always hang together with the other sailors overhere, meaning the Inter-17 and FX-one guys and after racing we discuss the race and pat the best achiever on the back with a job well done. And from time to time we make fun of eachother in a cynical way. When I'm out of breath after walking my boat up the sandy incline they say :"I thought you had a ligtweight boat ?". Of course I have to even the score now and then. But all in good fun.

But the only thing I never found funny was the fact that some dealers will say anything to make a sale. In other cases will they NOT say certain things in order to make a sale.

Call me a die-hard sceptic but if 4 earlier versions weight in above 150 kg (330 lbs) then for some reason I have not much faith in the 5th version being miraculously lighter.

The reason that I started with the F16 class together with several other was for a large part because I didn't believe anymore that we solo sailors would get anything like we wanted (or needed) from the big boat builders. Better to get out and make yourself what you want.

I think it pains me to see some people buy a boat for a price that also could have gotten them a lot better alternative. And I really mean that. As a design that is.

But enough of that ! Lets get to the issue at hand because just as here on my home water I think we should help eachother get the most enjoyement out of cat sailing.

>>You might be right that I need a water bag, because I'm like your friend.


That is what he told me. Honestly I have not much experience with any righting aid.

Another option is to go sailing with a buddy (or some buddies) on another boat. I mean having two boats on the water. When bth your sailing skills are good enough than the other boat can sail up to you and have the crew jump ship and help right the boat. If the other crew is also singlehanding then he can sail up to the tip of your mast and lift it up from the water and give it a small push upwards. This allows nearly everybody to be righter (further) singlehandedly.

I've heard various reports on righting bars, little better reports on righting bags, but best reports seem to come from shroud extenders. The last bit allows the upper shroud to be extended allowing the platform to be righting a little before the mast is pulled from the water. In several cases this seems enough to have the boat solo righted. Downside is that the shrouds are really slack and thus won't hold the mast in place anymore. You'll need a captive mastfoot connection for this method to work and tensioning your rig back up after righting could be a handful. Personally I would opt for the righting bag.

There are also some other rigting aids around, like gary's righting system, but I don't know them at all. Ask others. I do understand however that these systems provide a bigger addition to your righting moment then the other aids and therefor may be very attractive to you. You should look into that.

My other comment about "when you start out on a mediocre basis" was also refering to the fact that really a design that can't be righted singlehandedly with just the righting line and good technic is relatively limited in the available solutions. There is simply not much you can do that is ALSO practical.

In emergencies you can opt to drop your mainsail (lowers about 8 kg of weight out of a total of about 30 kg for the whole rig = 25 % or more ) Now you should be able to right it and hopefully rehoist the mainsail and get on your way. But like I said ; this is only a viable option for emergencies not practical for day to day sailing.

The basis is that the design was never optimized in its weight distribution to be righted singlehandedly and THAT is a formidable (design) flaw. Please forgive me this statement. After all 10, kg body weight difference (22 lbs) on the righting line only makes about 1.1 kg (2 lbs) difference at the mast tip. Making the mast only 2.2 kg lighter (4 lbs) results in the same 1.1 kg tip weight difference. Making the hulls lighter is also achieving more than that at the mast tip weight. Meaning that even small improvements in the design can account for far more improvement in singlehanded righting then any after market righting aid can achieve. Point is that you should start with a basic design that comes relatively close to where you need it to be and then most righting aids are easily enough to tip the scales when needed. Some designs however are pretty far away from where they need to be in the first place and the scope of rigting aids is barely enough to bridge the gap. I'm afraid that there is no kind way of expressing this.

Of course non of this is helping you much. Let me see what else is available.

....

Only option left is to take somebody along and sail the boat as a doublehander. I'm sorry if this seems like a hurtful statement but I'm serious here.


>>>Hey before I forget, read what I asked Jake about loosening the downhaul. I'm interested in your thoughts about that. I'm don't get how that would help matters.


I can't much explain why it helps but only attest that it does help. To be honest I never looked at it in much detail. I tried it and it works so I do use this trick when needed (light winds and flat water). That is all I needed to know.


Good luck

Wouter

Hi Phill & Scooby,

Your right Phill, on a windy day the boat blows across the lake like I've got an outboard motor mounted on it with the throttle cranked open. DOWNHAUL....ok, now I see. Makes sense. I was out last Thursday and talked some kids out on jetskis into helping me out for a while. I put it over 8 or 9 times and on a couple of occassions the boat started up without my permission and I almost went over again before I got things back under control. The downhaul was pretty snug all day. So point well taken. Thanks

Scooby, I'm with you at least in theory, about going over in strong wind in that I ought to be able to harness it's lifting power under the sail. But I'm going to have to get a little clearer in my mind on Phill's drag shoot first. I just got exhausted trying to swim the mast around and finally had to have one of the kids help me onto the hull. I was really pooped out. Unless the front hulls are headed pretty well into the wind, the mast in most winds, will rapidly end up pointing dead upwind, and any sail showing above the water will be pressed down by that wind. Two things did work. If I'd tipped over where the waves weren't too bad, the jetski driver could fairly safely move to the mast tip and lift it up. As soon as he got it over his head, I could pop it up fast. Otherwise in bigger waves one of the kids would jump off and climb up on the hull and kind of sit in my lap. Then we'd have enough ballast to right it again.

As for getting it up by myself, I Just couldn't do it. But it got me to thinking, as I noticed how hard the wind was hitting the tramp, that there must be a lot more weight somewhere, as Wouter has suggested. I figured if I took the mast and sail and all the rigging off, and could somehow keep the boat up in the air on one hull, that the wind would have blow it back down easily. So there is a heck of a lot more weight hanging out there than I had really considered. Guys like Jake (he's about my weight) and others tell me they've gotten bigger boats back up all by themselves with only a righting line. And several guys sailing F17s on the Great Lakes also say they right their boats by themselves, though I not sure how much they weigh. So I gotta think that with loosening the down haul and maybe a waterbag and then getting out as far as I can on the dagger board, along with maybe a quick novena will pop me up. The dealer told me that the F17 has a long learning curve and it seems to me that the only way to speed that up is to be willing to continually go to the edge until I can anticipate pretty precisly where that point is. In the meantime I figure I'll do a lot of swimming.

As for a righting pole, I sailed an F17 with a carbon pole mounted under the tramp and yikes does that ever smart when you bang your knees on that darn thing when you cross over. And don't hit your ankles on it either. I thought it was about the most uncomfortable thing you could do to a tramp. It does get the boat up though. But it's a lot more, at least it was for me, screwing around and time consuming than I would have thought. I'm either going to have to pork-up, or use a righting bag and/or drag bag and loosen the downhaul, or some use of the other tips before I put one of those things on my boat.

Thanks guys,
Daniel

If you get yor body way forward and I mean up bu the bridals, the blat will drift nose to slowly, then you got to move back ad out PDQ; timing to get the waves to help is good too. DH off is a must as is a good righting line.

Could someone clarify this for me. I fli[p my Tiger (and everything else) all the time and never touch the downhaul. I also have mine pretensioned, but would still have some minor concern about the top getting unhooked if I release the DH Tension.
Why does it make a difference?
CARY

Hi Mary,

Thanks for the explanations--very helpful.

I want to make sure of we are both using the same nomenclature. I recently ordered Johnson "shroud adjusters" from Annapolis Performance Sailing. It sounds like these are similar to, but not the same as the "loops" you describe. I can't seem to locate any of these from the usual sailing retailers.

However, Mary you said: "The reason I have heard for them not being class legal for some classes is the fear that the extra slack in the shroud might cause the mast to jump off its base during the righting process (although I have not personally heard of this happening)."

In my mind I can envision the value of lossening the upper shroud to allow the boat to start the righting motion. I imagine it would have to be loosened quit a bit to make much difference. But your point about becoming de-masted scares the daylights out of me. As Scooby said, capsizing, at least for me if I'm not practicing a righting technique, usually occurs due to higher wind/wave conditions. It seems to me most sailors and I imagine yourself, right their boats with crew weight alone, using techniques like detensioning the downhaul and positioning the mast for lift, and may use a pole, water bag, or drag chute for assistance. I bet if all of us in this thread were sailing F17s together, and one of you guys dumped, I could see you getting back up faster or easier than me. So I gotta think my inexperience is a big part of the problem. I've tried so many things and I still can't do it. It's tough when I don't know, what I don't know. But I'm going to get it sorted out sooner or later, and someday I'll be able to say with certainty, an F17 can or cannot be righted with 165-170 lbs.

A little off your points, Scoobie mentioned getting out on the hulls near the bridle attacment and using a good righting line. I replaced my stock righting line with 24' of good line that's easy to hold onto and to tie loops in. I've used the line to litterally balance myself out on the the extreme hull tip and hike my weight out even farther. It has absolutely no effect on repositioning the boat. Nor does it make any difference if I do the same thing off the hull's tramsom, or any position in between.

Mary, is a drag chute basically the same shape and dimensions as a righting bag, such as the one on page 36, item #01-3282 in Murray's catalog? If it is, them maybe in more difficult circumstances it could do double duty, assuming I could get it off the end of the hull and hook it over my shoulder with it loaded with water. I do usually sail on a lakes by myself, so your advice to carry some emergency gear sounds prudent.

Thanks Mary,
Daniel

Hi Wouter,

Well it seems we're birds of a feather. I'm plagued with the same condition, only I inherited it from my Irish ancestors. I've been chewed out for lacking tactfulness more than once. I took no offense, in fact as I said it really cracked me up, precisely because I never thought you intended any meanspiritedness.

One of the things I've realized over time regarding talking online, is first, most of us abbreviate our thoughts so we don't have to type as much. And second without tonal inflection, facial expressions and physical gestures our words when printed on a monitor, stand stark. As such they're open to an individual's interpretation, without benefit of clues as to the meaning intended by the speaker. So it's no wonder guys flare up at one another; only to be told by the person they railed against that their interpretation was incorrect. I suppose sailors, as a group, are fairly competitive people, and it occurs to each of us that our view of the world is the correct one, in spite of the fact that no evidence may be available to support our opinions. Instead we proceed forward on our assumptios alone, without the immediate participation of the person we're reacting to. A recipe for disaster and an opportunity for openmindedness.

I figure you're a pretty passionate guy when it comes to sailing and reading your posts tells me you know a heck of a lot more than I do about sailing. So I'm open to what you have to say, however you say it.

Maybe I should have provided a little bio about myself when I signed up for this forum. I guess I was either lazy or figured nobody would give a rip. Here's the deal...couple things happened to me that got me into sailing. First I got older and second I busted up my body pretty badly a little while ago. Last winter I wasn't making any progress with my recovery program, was really depressed about being an old fart, and no longer possessed a body that had formerly allowed me to lead a very athletic life. This fall I'll be 64. I decided sailing wouldn't stress my joints or bones very much and the activity would get me out and moving again. So I read everything I could get my hands on, reached a decision and bought 2005 Nacra F17. I launched it June 4, of this year. That was the first time I'd ever been on a sailboat in my entire life. It was blowing about 12-15 and gusting harder when I pushed off. I was so stiff I could hardly move around on the tramp and really just hung on, scared shi_ _less! Boy, was that a ride. Yesterday I logged my 53 time out sailing my little boat. First book I read while waiting to pick up my new boat was "Catamaran Racing: for the 90s" by Rick and Mary. Half the time I didn't know what they were talking about, and would have to stop and look up a term. But it's clearly written and I really enjoyed it. I still go back over specific sections when I come in from sailing, all befuddled. I went from them onto Stuart Walker and then to Frank Bethwaite. I've never been very successful at anything until I knew it in my mind inside out. So this summer I've been sailing a lot and reading at night. As good as any author may be I still need to put a new lesson into my own words and juggle it around until the light goes on. Sailing by myself as I do, you guys offer a valuable resource for me, and I'm very grateful for your advice.

I love sailing and my body is slowly starting to recover. A friend suggested I better watch it or I'd turn into a beach bum. Pleeeeeze, lord let me be a beach bum.
I've got a few hours of light left and it's blowing ...I'm outta here. I'll get back to you Wouter.
Thanks Wouter

In order to undo the shackle / thread on the downhail; do you not need to pull the DH back thru the system to create enough slack to un-do it ? I do. herein the answer - you are only letting most of the tension off....

Okay, I understand how important it is to know how to right your boat if you capsize, but what I don't understand is why you guys capsize in the first place. It's really not necessary, you know.

If you don't swim now and then; you are not pushing hard enough !

That's a cliche that I don't accept.

Ok, I'll bite..

Capsizing is slow, so we try to not do that. However, sometimes you can't avoid it. Either becouse we react to slow or wrong, we run out of options or we have to gamble to stay competitive.

Last weekend we was racing around the buoyos on a windward/leeward course. The top mark had an offset mark, and it was blowing 10-12m/s (around 25knots) with stronger gusts. On the jib reach to the offset mark, we was two 90kg's guys at the rear of the boat holding on to the aft-crossbeam with wide-open eyes locked to the bows who was underwater for the whole reach. If hit by a gust then, we would surely have gone over. Main and jib was both travelled out and twisted off.

One thing is your own boathandling and sailing style, when you have other boats around you need to think three moves ahead to stay out of situations that can lead to capsize.

Then you have the 'it came out of nowhere' capsize, like when we pitchpoled for the first (and so far, only time). We was sailing along as usual, not pushing it at all, and suddenly leeward bow just dove under..

I don't check this forum that often - sorry I've been absent!

With regard to wind strength, it's very important that you have enough wind to right the boat. All the times that I single handedly righted my F18, it was blowing in excess of 15knots. My F18 weighs 399lbs.

Orientation to the wind is important and I usually drag myself in the water off the bow to rotate the boat. Then VERY quickly get back to the righting line and start to lean out hard. As the boat comes up, it will want to swing the mast and sails into proper orientation with the wind. I bet your problem is mostly the lack of wind when you've practiced righting.

with regard to downhaul, I've never touched it when righting. Take a look at the following picture (my old Nacra 6.0 on a VERY tiny and extremely puffy lake) - the sail has pretty good draft even with downhaul on.

Sounds like a real fight for survival. How is it possible to build a single hander that you can’t right without some convoluted after market BS and two hours work?

Hello,

some comments regarding things I read.
There might be a disadvantage by loosening the downhaul.By that you might create a "baggy" shape of the mainsail.Thus alowing more weight pushing the mast down.
I sail a nacra5.5 mostly singlehanded, when I capsize I detach the main-sheet, so the sail sinks inline with the wanted righting motion.Then I put the daggerboard halfway in,making it stronger to stand on.After that I fasten myself to the righting line,pull out a (in the meantime become cold) beer and wait.Usually there is not enough time to finish my beer.
Reading all the articles there must be a solid solution to the righting problem when all combined.

Good luck and can someone please make the winter disappear?
P.

"Actually, I would probably get the hell out of the way while the rescue boat tries to right the catamaran - either by getting ON the rescue boat or jumping into the water and getting at least a boat length away along side."


OOer guys - never let go of the boat, thats priority number 1 in a capsize

Hi,

I've spent my fair share of time upside down on a few cats over the years. IMHO getting them upright is 95% technique with only a bit of brute force on most occasions. These days we run the downhaul under the tramp and that doubles as my righting rope. We have *never* removed the main from the sail to get the boat upright again. I understand what you are trying to achieve however it is simply not an issue.

BTW - middle of a glorious summer down here - expecting 110 deg F today

Michael

Yes it is winter here and the water is a bit on the cold side but we were able to get out for about 2 hours in about 12 to 14 knots today.