| Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: catman]
#56426 08/31/05 07:37 PM 08/31/05 07:37 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | They're not class legal in most catamaran classes.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Jake]
#56427 09/01/05 02:42 AM 09/01/05 02:42 AM |
Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 612 Cape Town, South Africa Steve_Kwiksilver
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Posts: 612 Cape Town, South Africa | "They're not class legal in most catamaran classes. " You mean like, one-(manufacturer)design classes ?? We`ve seen this before, mylar sails are still outlawed in many class rules that were written in the `70`s, despite them having become cheaper and more durable, hold their shape longer etc. I guess the reason might be that if, in your particular boat`s class rules, it states that you have to buy your sails from one supplier, normally after being marked up by the "license holder" (ie manufacturer), it`s not in their best interest that the buying public have sails that last indefinitely and have a long racing life. That`s the cost of "keeping the costs down" | | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]
#56429 09/01/05 08:18 AM 09/01/05 08:18 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I think most fiberglass factory production cats are about 100lbs. heavier than the could be if the industry would switch to carbon fiber hulls, masts, boards, rudders, beams and sails.
The argument against it is "Carbon is too expensive..." but if the entire industry were to swith and suppliers could make it in bulk, wouldn't the cost come down quite a bit?
The light aircraft industry is slowly changing over from aluminum to carbon and the prices are pretty much the same but the finished product is both lighter and stronger.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Steve_Kwiksilver]
#56431 09/01/05 08:21 AM 09/01/05 08:21 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I think most fiberglass factory production cats are about 100lbs. heavier than the could be if the industry would switch to carbon fiber hulls, masts, boards, rudders, beams and sails.
The argument against it is "Carbon is too expensive..." but if the entire industry were to swith and suppliers could make it in bulk, wouldn't the cost come down quite a bit?
The light aircraft industry is slowly changing over from aluminum to carbon and the prices are pretty much the same but the finished product is both lighter and stronger.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: ejpoulsen]
#56434 09/01/05 04:41 PM 09/01/05 04:41 PM |
Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Galveston jgrady
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Posts: 31 Galveston | I have had a set of cuben fiber sails on my P-19 since early last year. Huge difference in performance. Zero stretch, less weight and holding up well so far. Salud
JGrady
P-19
#1115 w/Hooter
Galveston
| | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Timbo]
#56437 09/01/05 07:10 PM 09/01/05 07:10 PM |
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 122 Jimbo
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Posts: 122 | The argument against it is "Carbon is too expensive..." but if the entire industry were to swith and suppliers could make it in bulk, wouldn't the cost come down quite a bit?
Fibergalss is basically mined from the ground as sand, then refined. That's why it's cheap. Carbon fiber OTOH,is a synthetic product with a complex and costly manufacturing process. Unless some new miracle process emerges, the cost will not go down anytime soon. The "synthesized mesophase pitch" method of production was supposed to be that miracle method, but the cost has not come down. The light aircraft industry is slowly changing over from aluminum to carbon and the prices are pretty much the same but the finished product is both lighter and stronger.
The economics and mechanics of boat vs light plane manufacturing are so completely different that such a simple comparison certainly becomes a bit simplistic, I'm sorry to say. The choice in light aircraft is between structural aluminum and carbon/epoxy, NOT glass and carbon. BIG difference. The savings in aircraft manufacturing comes not mainly from weight savings, but labor, because the parts count is so much lower for carbon/epoxy. Remember that metal aircraft are mostly riveted together, and that this is still done mostly by hand, one rivet at a time. Carbon/epoxy has allowed aircraft makers to build large structures in molds with significant automation and far fewer labor hours. Structurally, riveted or bonded high-strength aluminum still competes well with carbon/epoxy, but I for one would never buy an aluminum boat built from one of those corrosion-prone high-strength alloys. Corrosion problems are bad enough with masts and beams even though they are generally made of lower alloys like 5052 or 5056. It's like comparing apples to boiled eggs! Jimbo | | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Timbo]
#56439 09/01/05 10:40 PM 09/01/05 10:40 PM |
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 122 Jimbo
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Posts: 122 | What? Boats are already made in molds in few pieces. No savings in labor can be expected by switching to carbon/epoxy like there is for airplanes. So the boat just costs WAY more to build in carbon/epoxy. No way around it. Carbon won't be getting cheaper anytime soon. In fact, the price is expected to rise because the manufacturing process is energy intensive. Fiberglass has never been competitive in airplne structure because it lacks stiffness. Riveted aluminum is better structurally than fiberglass, though laborious to assemble. Airplanes are getting more and more carbon/epoxy structure mostly to save labor ($$$) not weight. Get it? Jimbo | | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Jimbo]
#56440 09/02/05 12:32 AM 09/02/05 12:32 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 493 Minnesota Jeff Peterson
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Posts: 493 Minnesota | There ARE cheap sources of carbon!
At any Wal-Mart you can get a 20 pound bag of Kingsford charcoal for $4.00.
Jeff Peterson H-16 Sail #23721 Big Marine Lake, MN
| | | Re: Carbon Sails Rule!!!!!!!
[Re: Jimbo]
#56441 09/03/05 07:17 AM 09/03/05 07:17 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Jimbo, I got it the first time, my "What" was in reference to the echo effect with all the double posts, the forum seems to be having problems.
Blade F16 #777
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