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Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #58809
10/12/05 04:52 AM 10/12/05 04:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Darryl,

Firstly I'd like to repeat that I prefer class racing. That is me and I am in the possition to by the boat I wan't. Others may not wish to commit themself that much into sailing and may choose a different class or an older boat. That suits them. If racing large fleets were important to them, then they can also find a class to suit their budget. A Class, F-18, Hobie 16, Paper Tiger ect. There are other strong classes out there. But whatever you choose, enjoy it as that is what really counts.

Regarding comparing top sailors in each class.... Seriously.... Compare sailors results when they cross classes, get involved in these classes yourself and see first hand or watch sailors on the race course, techneque, crew work, mistakes ect. These comments are not 'elitist and derogatory' comments... It is fact.

I will come to the table with an example. A Sailor I have known for many years and have raced against in Wagga and Sydney.

Bruce McArthur was a good club sailor. His fater built him a Mossie which he race for a few years with great results and won atleast 1 National Championship. He then moved into the Tornado class and joined Booth and Forbes as their training partners learning A LOT about cat racing and improved plenty. He then, like a lot of Tornado sailors, moved into the A Class. At the last Nationals as you can see above, he placed 17th. This was not a bad result. It is just a red hot fleet.

Yes you will find that some weekend club sailors may have more natural sailing ability than one who way compete at an international level..... But the International sailor will usually be the guy who puts more work into his sailing, trains more ofter and works hard at making himself a better sailor then the guy who has more natural ability.

I am not trying to offend any sailors or rubbish any classes. I am just calling it as it is. I also not trying to big note my self and infact only consider myself a weekend sailor also. But the many guys at the top end of these fleets are THAT GOOD and a totaly different calibre to other sailors.

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Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: ] #58810
10/12/05 05:15 AM 10/12/05 05:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Hi Gary,

Yeah just a bit of friendly banter.

Regarding F-18 Fleet numbers. F-18 is a new class in OZ with it's first Nationals held at Forster in 2003 which saw 28 entries. The second Nats was also at Forster 2004 and had 36 entries. The 2005 Nats (25 Entries)was held at Aierly Beach 2 to 3 day drive North of Sydney and 3 to 4 from Melbourne. If it was at Forster, I'd imagine we would have had 40 boats. Everybody knew the fleet size would be down. Next year I believe the Nats will be in Melbourne and you should realy see the F-18s come out. In the last year, quiet a few F-18s have been sold with this comming season looking the same. The F-18 class is the fastest growing cat class in Oz and the World. With regattas more central to fleet locations, you will naturaly see larger numbers at these regattas. Also re Forster this year, firstly there were 7 F-18s and that also was unusualy small for for F-18. Don't forget the F-18 Worlds will be in Oz in 2007. This will help give the fleet a boost in numbers as will post Worlds when there are cheaper ex charter boats for sale.

I guess you have to race in these pro classes before you truly realise the level of competition that is in them. And I am not talking about just those at the pointy end. Many Oz sailors just cannot comprehend the level of these fleets as they have had very little or no real exposure to them. And before anybody says it.... I have competeted in other Oz classes too.

Anyway this rant could go on forever so I'll see you in the next thread.

Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #58811
10/12/05 06:15 AM 10/12/05 06:15 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
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A



Hi Tim,

thanks for posting those results, odd that they don't tally with "official" list when they gave you the elapsed times.

But what is not in dispute, is the position of the top Taipan4.9 sloop when factored into mixed fleet. As you can see he was no doubt a better sailor than the Mossie sailors and the VYC results show this.

Now I can hear some of you saying, but the Mossie still won. But if you take into account the fact that there was only one non spinnaker reach in each race, most of it was windward and returns, the course clearly suited spinnaker cats, wish he had used spinnaker because his performance would no doubt have been awesome.

So the Taipan4.9 with no spinnaker did well to get this close to Mossies and I have no doubt would have beaten them on VYC if he had used Spin.

If you look at elapsed times Taipan 4.9 sloop beat Altered over the line in all but one race so with Spin. I am sure would have beaten Mossies. I know it involves a few presumptions, but in my opinion VYC Yardstick of the Mossie is not far off the mark.

Regards Gary.

Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #58812
10/12/05 07:37 AM 10/12/05 07:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
addict
Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Tim, Gary, don`t take it too seriously, remember if other class sailors are rumouring that the Mozzie has a favourable rating, what they are in principle doing is promoting the Mozzie as a boat that is faster than everybody thinks, you have a great situation in that sailors from other classes are doing your marketing for you !!
Take it one step further : Keep posting results to VYC to get more accurate ratings for all classes, and get sailors from other classes to petition VYC to lower the Mozzie handicap. Once you have it in writing from other classes that the Mozzie is "unfairly fast", your class should see some positive growth .
Stephen, have to agree, OD or Formula is a better way to test skill than open class, but looking at the Forster regatta results there seems to be a varied group of one-or two boat classes that need to be given an open class to race in. I think the Mozzie rating is probably quite fair looking at the comparison with an ISAF rating the Mozzie would acchieve, but I think the YVC rating for Tornado and F18 have been unrealistically lowered by the consistently high level of sailing in these fleets as you say, which makes it hard to beat a well-sailed Mozzie on a Tornado or F18,given the ratings. (just my opinion). This is where performance based ratings fall on their heads - they assume equal skill level across all classes.

So if you think the ratings are wrong, slow down a bit at the next few regattas

Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: ] #58813
10/12/05 10:47 AM 10/12/05 10:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
pesky mozzies..
The solution is Mortein!..


Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #58814
10/12/05 01:27 PM 10/12/05 01:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
This is where performance based ratings fall on their heads - they assume equal skill level across all classes.


I feel I should clarify this point a bit. The assumption about skill level pertains to the first Tornado, first Mossie and first F18 in one race. The "depth of talent" in the class does not directly factor into the ratings. (Indirectly, a deep class could be expected to develop the boats performance to its fullest)

So a race with Bundock on a Tornado and Asby on an A cat and another international sailor on a Mossie will give you a decent data set. A race against Asby with myself on the Tornado will be tossed out because Asby will finish so far ahead of me that the software will toss it as an outlier.

Wouter has frequently noted.. Many one design races are rarely actually being decided within the margin of error of a handicap system so much of the debate is just bar talk with little quantitative data to support the arguments.

We know that factoring in wind speed is also important in sorting through the non linear performance of the wide variety of boats and the measurment systems now recognize this. 2005 Texel now issues a trapping... non trapping rating

Finally, a few other assumptions are also at work including. Your boat is in good racing condition... eg... you have good sails and a boat at weight. (Not a 10 year old boat and sail combo)

Second, The shift to windward leeward courses from the old Olympic course with a reach and upwind finish also impacts the spins, nons spins and unirigs ratings and this has not been really factored into the ratings of all of the boats on the course (especially the older designs. Again, who knows what the magnitude of this factor is.

Third, conditions remain constant for the duration of the race.

Lastly, comparing a Yardstick (Vic or USPN) rating to a measurment rating (Isaf or texel)does not indicate any terrible injustice. The Mossie is the first one I have heard of in a while (besides the US F16 rating)

Listening to the debate, It does not sound like the Mossie number is far off its actual fair rating.

Since, I trust every sailor will bench mark their performance against sailors with identical boats. They will know that they were the 3rd Tornado With Bundock and Forbes first and Hagarra Second and themselves third...The scorekeeper might even print out those results.

The real race for the weekend is against their buddy on an F18 on handicap since he puts in the same amount of time training as you do... (read NONE) and has the same amount of experience.

Large fleets with bands of competitive sailors are much much better then a small one design fleet where you probably could write down the results before hand.

Take Care
Mark



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Ohh I'm loving this ! [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #58815
10/28/05 05:50 PM 10/28/05 05:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
C
C249 Offline
stranger
C249  Offline
stranger
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
Quote
Quote

it would be a wonderful thing if at all regattas we could sail just against our own classes.... But fact is those days are gone... Where stuck with mixed fleets regardless of preferences, which means using VYC Yardsticks like it or not.


Each to their own, but for me I choose not to 'like it' so I set out to do something about it. I was sick of racing against 2 may be 3 other Ts at local regattas and 7 Ts at National Championships. I therefore moved into a class that will give me the class racing...F-18. Now I can race against 6 to 10 + other F-18s at local weekend regattas with championships seeing 30 to 35 boats with the next Oz titles expected to reach the 50 mark.

Quote

I love your list of sailors but even Glenn finds it hard to sail more than one boat at the same regatta. As far as sailors that are head and shoulders above the rest, it is realy not that long a list but I am not going to start listing them.


Lets look at the fleets from last years Nationals in the F-18 and A Class.

A Class

1 G Ashby
2 S Anderson
3 B Collett
4 T Kirkham
5 D Brewer
6 D Mackenzie
7 M Philpott
8 M Johnston
9 G Hartbour
10 H Sinclair
11 S Scott
12 C Parker
13 S Lewis
14 B Hooper
14 M Vaccari
16 G Vize
17 B McArthur
18 D Ellis
19 S Breadon
20 D Blake
21 K Symonds
22 B Geisker
23 I Walls
24 N Carter
25 L Zylstra
26 B Medlow
27 D Godfrey
28 V Collett
29 N Caldwell
30 D Foran
31 J Dowling
32 G Kilminster
33 G Brown
34 P Sarant
35 P Bradbury
36 Kopp
37 A Vize
38 S Moser
39 M Kopp
40 R Nicholson
41 C Neeskens
42 D Elwers
43 J Goldsmith
44 P Neeskens
45 J Lennon
46 T Cochrane
47 N Rickaros
48 G Patterson
49 M Cowley

Formula 18

1 Glenn Ashby / Tim Kirkham
2 Greg Goodall / Liam Goodall
3 Michael Cook / Andrew Williams
4 Tim Shuwalow / Grant Rogers
5 Nev Thompson / Shamus Stevens
6 Mal Gray / Adrian Fawcett
7 Mark Laruffa / Jesse Dobie
8 Steve Brewin / Gary Gornall
9 Eric Cok / Anja Stoltenborg
10 Michael Cahill / Phil Cavanagh
10 Chris Caldecoat / Mat Fulton
12 Warren Guinea / Dan Williams
13 Chris Dean / Kennuth Hibbert
14 Danny James / C. James
15 Chris Brewin / Richard Brewin
16 Dan Corlett / Zac Seymour
17 Andrew McLeod / Bill Holton
18 Luke McMullen / Adam Beattie
19 Russ McDonald / Luke McDonald
20 Pete Skewes / Kingsly Pursch
20 Nick Green / Ian Wood
22 Rob Stewart / Wade Kruger
23 Jason Farnell / Andrew Hutton
24 Dean Nissen / Shane ?
25 Dave Elliot / C. Munro
26 Andrew McKenzie / Andrew Macpherson
27 Brad Nixon / John Nixon
28 David Bent / Ken McMachon
29 Bob Schahinger / Carina Cartwright
30 Tony Thorne / Leigh Thorne
30 Andrew Holden / John Lizzio
32 Michael Burdack / Mat Kurl
33 Brad Owen / Scott Polchleb
34 Jarrod Wallis / Callan Bunt

Pretty impressive list of sailors with guys who have represented at an International level or won World Championships at the top down to mid fleet.

Quote

I believe the guy's who sailed Mossies with spin. at recent Wildcat regattas are better than the average sailor you seem to be implying they are. However I know for a fact Glenn beats them on V.Y.C. I have no illusions they are that good.


I did not say at all that these 2 Mossie sailors were not good sailors. But look at it in perspective. Just where would they figure in the results of these fleets. Would you say mid fleet. ???? If so, you would expect that the mid fleet to top guys in the F-18 & A Class would be at the top of the fleet in the non International Oz classes such as the Mossie class. Would you say that most of the guys in the lower part of this fleet would be mid fleeting in the Oz Class fleets. Many of these Oz Class fleets also act as feeder classes and have a percentage of the fleet that are quiet green to cat sailing.

Taking all this into account, how would you compare the “AVERAGE” skill levels in these fleets.

For the record also, my definition of an average to good sailor are those who make up the guts of these highly competitive fleets (f18 & A). Very good to Great sailors to me are those who have graduated through classes with excellent results and have move onto representing their country at an International or Olympic level with respectable results. If you look at these 2 classes…… You will see quiet a few past and present representatives as well as top placed finishers to World Champions.

Anyway that is my little rant and I do not mean to offend anybody by what I have said…… This all started with a light humoured comment that I made in another thread after hearing some talk on the beach. I know what to expect form handicap racing and take it for what it is……



Looking at the list of A finishers, it's interesting to see that one sailor who moved from about mid-fleet in T 4.9s is better than mid fleet in As....he's been about there consistently I think.

Also the performance of T4.9 sailors who hop into F18s briefly is pretty good - Cookie and Willy third in the F18 nationals, Cookie and Fabio 10th in the worlds.

If the standard in F18s is so much higher, how can a pair of sailors ranked 2nd and 4th nationally in a "local" class move into F18s, sail the boat once, and then finish 10th at the F18 worlds including a heat win? How can the guys ranked 1st and 4th nationally in T 4.9s move into F18s and finish 3rd if the F18 sailors are so much better?

So maybe the standard is pretty equal in those classes?

And the Mossie guys undoubtably (from what I can see) sail very well compared to the T 4.9s, including pulling off nasty moves like pointing so high they force poor little innocent Taipans to tack away a good position at the boat end of the line and off to the wrong side of the course...... :-( . I get the impression that even thought the kites are pretty new, the Mossie guys know their boats very, very well from many years of experience in the class.
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