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MOB and sailing solo? #58937
10/11/05 09:23 AM
10/11/05 09:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Captain_Dave  Offline OP
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Ontario, Canada
It has been on my mind since becoming an H16 sailor this past summer - the issue of sailing solo and falling off the boat. I have not had this happen to me, nor have I found any posts dealing with it. The more I think about this scenario, the less comfortable I am in dealing with it. I don`t know what to expect if this occurs - I don`t have a plan.

I am hoping to hear from sailors who have been through this on the H16. What should one expect in this circumstance? Will the boat round up and weathervane? Do different wind velocities cause different boat behaviors after falling off? Should I hold on to the mainsheet for all I`m worth, or will this create a bigger problem?

...I just don`t have a clue, and since I sail solo most of the time, I figure I better get some advice from someone who does.


Dave

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Captain_Dave] #58938
10/11/05 01:20 PM
10/11/05 01:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
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I have sailed my H16 (before I sold it) solo numerous times. I am big enough to be able to right it solo as well so I wasn't worried about that. To handle the eventuality of a solo MOB I always had weather helm on my boat. This way, if I was unable to sail for any reason the boat would head up an into irons in light wind or capsize in strong winds. Either way I could swim to the boat. I even jumped off just to see how far it would go on it's own. It was a bit of a swim but manageable.


Nick

Current Boat
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Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: hobienick] #58939
10/11/05 01:47 PM
10/11/05 01:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Nick,

That`s the kind of info I am looking for. I am not worried re: capsizing and righting - I have found I can do that just fine. But this business of the boat getting away from me is another matter.

I also understand the issue of maintaining a certain degree of weather helm on a sailboat. I do that as well.

I am not a fast swimmer, so I do have concerns of not being able to get back to a boat that is drifting in irons hundreds of yards away.

Dave

Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Captain_Dave] #58940
10/11/05 02:45 PM
10/11/05 02:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline
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Jeff Peterson  Offline
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Minnesota
You are RIGHT to be VERY concerned!

Flipping the boat always has some hazards. You may get brused up a little, but you'll heal. Its rare to do any real damage, but it can happen. The truely cautious will always wear their life preserver. (but I don't so I am taking risks, which I may regret some day.)

But falling off the boat has different risks. When the boat starts to tip, stay to the TOP side of the trampoline and slip into the water, then quickly get out from there in case the boat decides to turtle on top of you (doesn't usually happen). Then stay in contact with the boat at ALL TIMES, as you go throught the routine of righting the boat.
If you can't right the boat solo, at least you can stand on the hull until you are assisted or rescued.

But if you fall or drop off to the bottom side, there is a chance you may get seperated from the boat. QUICKLY get to the boat. If the wind was strong enough to flip your boat, there is a good chance the wind can push your boat faster than you can swim. If you get seperated from the boat, as hard as you swim, it just keeps getting further away. If you sail a small or medium sized lake, this is just real annoying. But if it is a large lake or the ocean, well for your sake, I hope the wind is blowing into the nearby shore.

These possibilities are well worth considering, before they actually happen.


Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Jeff Peterson] #58941
10/11/05 02:55 PM
10/11/05 02:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Ontario, Canada
Jeff,

You obviously appreciate the concern I have.

I vaguely recall one fella who said he tethered himself to the boat - that seems dangerous to me. I don`t want to get tangled further or become a human crank-bait.

Hopefully we will get a lot of feedback on this topic as well as some "been there done that" stories. I really want to get a good sense of what happens in this scenario.


Dave

Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Captain_Dave] #58942
10/11/05 02:55 PM
10/11/05 02:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
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The trick is to rig for enough weather helm where it will turn into irons fairly soon, but not so much that you wear your self out fighting it all day.

In all reality if you fall off the boat while sailing solo, chances are pretty good it will capsize. It is unlikly that you will fall off in 5 kt winds. Unless, of course, you are auditioning for a Vonnage commercial


Nick

Current Boat
Looking for one

Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: hobienick] #58943
10/11/05 03:13 PM
10/11/05 03:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline
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Minnesota
Once the wind gets a good hold of your boat, even a capsized boat can drift away faster than you can swim. The tramp is now the sail.


Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Jeff Peterson] #58944
10/11/05 03:27 PM
10/11/05 03:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
hrtsailor Offline
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North Carolina
When I was looking for a Hobie, I was given a phone number of someone who was getting rid of an H-18 after a bad experience. It seems he and his wife were sailing off Gulf Shores, AL and he fell off. His wife hadn't been trained to control the boat and was headed out to sea without him. I guess she finally figured out how to turn around or someone came to their aid. So even if you are not solo you can run into problems. The crew needs have some practise.

Howard

Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: hrtsailor] #58945
10/11/05 04:17 PM
10/11/05 04:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
Dave: Falling off the boat doesn't happen very often. You're more likely to jump off while going out on the wire and having your harness unhook. If you sail enough it will happen. When it does hold onto the mainsheet. You don't want to get seperated from the boat. Boats can sail away real fast. The boat will usually flip when you jump off. If there is enough wind to try and trap the boat will drift faster than you can swim. Stay with the boat at all times.
Attached: 2 time H16 National Champ Paul Hess holding on.

Attached Files
59380-IMG_9233.jpg (406 downloads)

Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: pbisesi] #58946
10/11/05 04:33 PM
10/11/05 04:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Captain_Dave  Offline OP
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Ontario, Canada
Great photo, and another 2 questions answered.

Apparently, it is better to do some body surfing with the mainsheet in-hand rather than risk being separated from the boat. And, the boat CAN sail far enough and fast enough away on the MOB to create a serious situation.


Dave

Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Captain_Dave] #58947
10/11/05 05:09 PM
10/11/05 05:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 110
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newbiesailor Offline
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ok, i may sound really stupid to all of you guys, but could someone explain what MOB is and what weather helm is?

Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: newbiesailor] #58948
10/11/05 05:51 PM
10/11/05 05:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Captain_Dave  Offline OP
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Newbiesailor,

Sorry about that,

MOB is short for man-over-board

Weather helm is the tendancy for a sailboat to steer into the wind (head up) all by itself. ie, the boat wants to weathervane of its own accord. You can feel this yourself in the tiller-tug that occurs as the boat tries/wants to do this. As I have read and found myself, the more you rake the mast back, the greater the weather helm, and this weather helm is expressed at the tiller as tiller-tug. Which in-turn can be reduced by following the HobieCat instructions on how to rake the rudders forward. But, that is another post!

Dave


Re: MOB and sailing solo? [Re: Captain_Dave] #58949
10/12/05 07:55 AM
10/12/05 07:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
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St. Louis, MO
I have found that the best way to avoid too much trouble with a solo MOB is to sail around other boats. Even when I sail off shore a little ways I am always around other boats. I jsut feel better about this. When I did my little expereiment I had my buddy on his boat out there with me. I'm not as slow as it might seem


Nick

Current Boat
Looking for one

Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: hobienick] #58950
10/12/05 11:28 AM
10/12/05 11:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
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hobiegary  Offline
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I sail in the ocean. Most of the time it is done solo. I sail as far as 35 miles off shore solo, sometimes to return same day. So there is my qualification to make this statement:

I would never sail solo without being tied to the boat unless there are either a lot of sailors nearby, or a shoreline within a short swim. When I am not tied to the boat, I keep a death grip on the main sheet line.

I have fallen off of a Hobie 16, on a broad reach, without being tied to the boat. The death grip on the mainsheet created enough main sheet tension to create enough mainsheet trim to create enough weather helm to cause the cat to round up to weather and capsize herself. Since I was dragging under the water behind my boat as this system caused automatic sheeting, I named it DUMBASS or Dragging Under My Boat Automatic Sheeting System.

It was not as easy as it may sound. I did not simply hang on to the mainsheet with one hand. When I felt the sheet pulling quickly through my hand, I knew that I would not have enough hand strength to keep the end of the line (I use separate sheet and separate outhaul control lines). I wraped the moving line around an arm and braced for what might try to pull my shoulder off. Using both hands and one entire arm, I was able to remain attached to the accelerated boat.

Don't be a DUMBASS, tie yourself to the boat if sailing off shore, solo.

GARY


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: hobiegary] #58951
10/13/05 02:02 AM
10/13/05 02:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 66
Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South A...
Clint_SA Offline
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Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South A...
Hey Dave..good question posted. Some of the responses are interesting. From my experience I would like to add something. Besides checking your side stay cables (around the crimp area!) make sure you check the trapeze crimps. Whilst double trapezing offshore in a race, my trapeze cable snapped at the crimp right below the handle. This put me in the water so quick I had no idea what had happened (thought my harness had broken). I resurfaced to watch the boat, still skimming the surface with my girlfriend out on the wire. She got the boat under control at put it into irons…but the 50m swim was the worst I have ever done…I could just hear the theme song from Jaws getting louder and louder as I swam back to the boat.

With regards to tieing yourself to the boat..if you’re going to try that..maybe have some sorte of quick release system on that??
I personally will be holding onto the mainsheet next time which could capsize the boat..but rather that than swimming to the da-dum-da-dum-DA-DUM
Clint


Dubulamanzi
Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: Clint_SA] #58952
10/13/05 06:05 AM
10/13/05 06:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Clint,
Glad to see there is still off-the beach sailing in Durban - I`d heard the new development had closed PYC beach club and there was nowhere to launch anymore at Vetchies ?
Agree with your sentiment - if you`re going to be attached to the boat, good idea to be able to "quick release" - If you have a one-piece mainsheet and traveller rope you could try running it through a paragliding quick-release karabiner that is attached to the harness. If you fall overboard and are being dragged under or behind the boat at least you can hit the button, and it gives you enough time to grab mainsheet with both hands and hang on - you can then decide manually when the right moment is to let go (ie just before you pass out !)
Agree with Gary, there is sometimes no way you will swim back to a Hobie or any cat that is stable on it`s side being blown along at 4 knots, and in Durban I`d not want to swim back to the beach unless I`d capsized INSIDE the shark-nets, never mind 35 miles out(yikes Gary, what are you thinking ??? )

Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #58953
10/13/05 07:39 AM
10/13/05 07:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 66
Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South A...
Clint_SA Offline
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Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South A...
Yeah Steve
The sailing here is still going well. With regards to the Point Development, we were served notice to vacate the beach club by december 05.For those interested, a developer is rebuidling a part of durban's beach area, unfortunately where our club in situated. Its a matter were money talks, and our club- rated as a great sailing place- falls in the area. We don't have the money to really fight back. But, we fought the Notice to vacate, and now the developers are willing to negotiate, and promised we can sail off Vetchies till Jan 07. They don't want it to end in court as far as I know.
We still get 8-12 Hobies on average on weekends pending the weather.
How is the Hobie set-up in Cape Town. I'm thinking of working there for a year or so. Trying to finish up my studies here in Durbs..It would be nice to join a sailing club if I did move down..
Are there lots of Clubs..or Are Sean, Blaine and all the top guys in one club?
Clint


Dubulamanzi
Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: Clint_SA] #58954
10/13/05 10:05 AM
10/13/05 10:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Ontario, Canada
Hey Guys,

Good info. Especially from Gary and the advice on tethering. I am receptive to the tethering idea only as long as it is a quick release connection.

I am unfamiliar with the hang-glider quick release carabiner...would it be suitable/ practical for marine use? Are there any other quick release gadgets that would work for this purpose? Is anybody dead opposed to tethering oneself to the boat? Has anyone done this (tethering) and have an experience to share about falling off?

As for wishing to capsize "inside the shark nets"... Well, as a fresh water sailor my only thought to that is DAMN RIGHT; It seems every time I turn on the Learning Channel these days I see some massive White Shark flying out of the water (in South Africa) with a fake seal in its jaws. I guess when your trapping out it`s probably a good idea not to let your butt skim the water on those hot days!

Dave

Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: Captain_Dave] #58955
10/13/05 12:36 PM
10/13/05 12:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
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hobiegary  Offline
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US Western Continental Shelf
I have fastened a snap shackle to myself.
[Linked Image]
The snap shackle has a quick release cord. I clip it to a line that is attached to the boat; this line has a bowline loop tied in the end of it. (traveler line in my case) Or you can snap onto the continuous sheet/traveller.

This system is less than perfect, but it works and has proven itself to me a few times. One time was a pretty intense emergency where the boat was dragging me at 3-4 knots.

The problem, so far, is that the snap shackle has a bulbous end when it is open (the bulb is the female to the male fastener pin) and this end resistes pulling smoothly over the edge of the tether line.

My crewman, Bill Mattson has come up with a very good release line. It is a thin rope that has a vinyl tube over it, with a plastic ball at the outter end. The vinyl keeps the line errect so that it is easy to find with one hand (without having to look with your eyes). (/joke temptation off)

Bill uses something like this:
[Linked Image]
but his has the same problem as mine, the end of the shackle, when open, is bulbous and catches on the line that it is attatched to.

Keep your eyes out for something that is easy to trip and will smoothly allow a line to release. Mine takes two motions, one to open the shackle, then one to assist the line over the bulbous end of the snap shackle jaw.

I have another kind in mind, but have not yet tried it. I'll try for pictures soon.


About Sharks: While we do have great whites and plenty of other sharks here in the Channel Islands, California area, they are not an issue. Shark attacks are extremely rare if even heard of. We routinely jump into the water, off shore to test our righting skills or have a swim. I have, however been within 20 feet of a Blue Whale (largest animal ever) when he spouted and the sound is felt, rather than heard as you ears can not seem to register such amplitude. It shook me but half the shake was excitment, the other half was vibration and fear combined.

GARY


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: MOB when sailing solo? [Re: hobiegary] #58956
10/13/05 01:29 PM
10/13/05 01:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline OP
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Captain_Dave  Offline OP
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Ontario, Canada
Gary,

Again many thanks for the advice. I see what you mean re: the bulbous end of the shackle. I wonder if a larger diameter tether line would help to better slide off the shackle - I bet you have already tried that though.

What have you found to be the best place to attach the shackle - I know the ankle didn`t make your short list!

As I understand you, the shackle stays on the sailor along with a pull-cord to easily release/open the shackle pin.

Since the load rating of that shackle will far excede what is required as a safey tether, perhaps partially grinding away, then re-polishing the bulbous tip would also help the release...(/jokes off /off /off)...down boy! /jokes off dammit!...This could also be done with a larger snap shackle so as to provide a good margin of left-over metal after the grinding/polishing process.



Dave

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