Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Cat has won in hamburg! [Re: Dermot] #59329
10/20/05 07:49 AM
10/20/05 07:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
Just a few days ago there was a competion in germany hamburg
the race was held during the hanse boat show.

the well known Tornado sailor Roland Gäbler and Gunnar Struckmann sailing on the tornado, were competing against the raceboard windsurfer Moritz Martin (german champion) and the kite boarder Anne Pieper (german champion).

the wind was quite a bit unsteady with lulls and puffs.
the surfer was actually very fast in the puffs, but very slow in the lulls, while the tornado had a much more consistant speed.

the race was won by the tornado.

Last edited by alutz; 10/20/05 07:54 AM.

Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
-- Have You Seen This? --
Cat has won in hamburg! German Text ... [Re: alutz] #59330
10/20/05 07:52 AM
10/20/05 07:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
Katsegler zeigen Surfern und Kitern die Hecks

19.10.2005

Trotz strahlender Sonne war es kalt, der Spätherbst ließ grüßen. Da verstanden es die Zuschauer an den Ufern der Hamburger Außenalster gut, dass sich die Spitzenathleten gehörig warmfahren mussten. Am Vormittag kam es zum Showdown zwischen prominenten Vertretern der angesagtesten Fun-Sportarten
Kiter, Surfer und Segler traten direkt gegeneinander an. Die hanseboot hatte zu diesem Vergleich geladen und die Deutschen Meister Anne Pieper, Moritz Martin sowie Roland Gäbler und Vorschoter Gunnar Struckmann aufs Wasser geschickt.
Die Topathleten litten gemeinsam unter den böigen Bedingungen bei Nordwestwind auf der Alster. Dennoch kam der Welt- und Europameister und Olympiadritte im Tornado am besten zurecht und gewann. Der Deutsche Meister der Raceboard-Klasse hatte beim offiziellen zweiten Run Pech: „Ich brauche die Angleitphase“, so Martin später an Land. „Der Tornado braucht die nicht. Wenn der Wind durchgehalten hätte, hätte ich gewonnen.“

Schwäbin Anne Pieper, Deutsche Meisterin im Kitesurfen, litt am meisten unter den Bedingungen. „Konstanter Wind ist ideal zum Kiten. Glattes Wasser auch. Glattes Wasser hatten wir.“ Die quirlige Pieper wurde offiziell Dritte. „Wir hatten heute einen Vorteil wegen des böigen Windes. Ein Surfer beschleunigt extrem schnell, aber stoppt auch ebenso abrupt, der Tornado segelt gleichmäßiger. Im Duell Katamaran-Windsurfer wird der Weltrekord derzeit von einem Windsurfer gehalten, und ich war sehr gespannt auf den Vergleich. Mein Favorit war der Windsurfer. Ein Kiter ist enorm schnell, aber beim Kiten muss alles stimmen: Kurs und Wind. Ich bewundere Anne, die das heute auf diesem schwierigen Alsterrevier ganz hervorragend hinbekommen hat.“

Tornado bei offiziellem Vergleich Schnellster


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
Re: What is faster, a windsurfer or a multihull? [Re: bvining] #59331
10/20/05 10:15 AM
10/20/05 10:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
addict
Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
"What kind of crazy start is that?

That video shows a reach on both tacks."

Hi Bill,
That`s slalom racing, you reach between bouys, normally a lot closer together, and normally do more "laps". Also the course is mostly set with a cross-shore wind so the sailors are jumping waves out through the surf and then surfing them back in - the inside gybe mark is usually set in knee-deep water in the breakers. These boards are designed for a lot of speed, and don`t go upwind at all, the best you can do with them is close reach. But pull one off the wind and go on a broad reach, and expect to be afraid.... Try not to break ankles in a wipeout though.
The start is a gate start, and I`d agree, it looks crazy !

Re: What is faster, a windsurfer or a multihull? [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #59332
10/21/05 04:34 AM
10/21/05 04:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
addict
Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Going flat out over a 500m course to set records is one thing, but maintaining almost 40knots over 1nm is amazing !

"Speed Sailing - Antoine Albeau Breaks The French Nautical Mile Record"

http://www.neilpryde.com/en/2005/news/news_antoine.php

Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Steve_Kwiksilver] #59333
10/21/05 07:42 AM
10/21/05 07:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Humm, say what is the windsurf record for largest distance covered in 24 hours ?

1 nm is peanuts !

Sailboats rule !


Hey does anybody have that video clip of that windsurfer racing one of the ORMA open 60 trimarans. That is a bloody good clip and shows the speed of an ORMA open 60 tri.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Wouter] #59334
10/21/05 08:01 AM
10/21/05 08:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
You can look at it also the other way.

They spend so much money and are still not faster than a windsurfer!
Speed for money: nothing beats a windsurfer!


Last edited by alutz; 10/21/05 09:28 AM.

Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
Link to the tri racing the sailboard [Re: alutz] #59335
10/21/05 08:04 AM
10/21/05 08:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Wouter] #59336
10/21/05 09:18 AM
10/21/05 09:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
addict
Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hi Wouter,
Say where did you get THAT little piece of info ? Now I`m confused, a sailboard will cover more nautical miles in a 4 hour session of sailing than most other sailing craft can do in 24 hours, so I`m lost as to how you come to the fact that 1nm is a "24hr record" for windsurfers. Check in on
http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps.asp?mnu=user&val=4082&uid=53

Date : Thursday, October 20, 2005
Spot : Strand Horst, Netherlands
Board : T1 RS60
Sail : Naish Stealth 6.5
Fin : Select Lightning Speed 30
Average speed : 34.9 knots (35.4 35.4 34.7 34.7 34.5)
Max. GPS (display) : 37.1 knots
Max. 2 sec. (software) : 37.5 knots
100 m run : 36.2 knots
250 m run : 34.4 knots
500 m run : 34.2 knots
Nautical mile : 26.2 knots
1 hour : 18.1 knots
Distance : 58.0 km
Windspeed : 15.0 knots
Windgusts : 20.0 knots

Interesting that these speeds are set in 15knots gusting to 20, and that he is using equipment that anyone can buy, it is not specialised custom stuff. In fact some fairly high speeds are being recorded on that site by weekend sailors with 5 or 6 year old sails such as the 1999 Neil Pryde Z1 (of which I have 2 sizes !!! )
Yes, maybe ORMA 60`s are faster (on the open sea), but I have 4 boards & 4 sails, and ummm... no ORMA 60 in my yard. (I have made sure there is space for one, though, you never can dream too big !!)

Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: alutz] #59337
10/21/05 11:20 AM
10/21/05 11:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

Speed for money: nothing beats a windsurfer!



Surfer and Kite surfers overhere have several boards and a multitude of sails and mast. Each for optimal performance in a narrow windrange. The cost of all that is gettting very close to a catamaran. The kite surfers overhere, the serious ones, are spending more on the gear that one spends on a catamaran.

The picture is always more nuanced.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Wouter] #59338
10/21/05 11:37 AM
10/21/05 11:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
alutz Offline
enthusiast
alutz  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 267
Switzerland
Yeah, but I was comparing the cost between the Orma and the Windsurfer...


Andi, Switzerland
Team OST
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: alutz] #59339
10/21/05 01:33 PM
10/21/05 01:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Sycho15 Offline
addict
Sycho15  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 591
Bradenton, FL
Also note: that Orma60 has a few reefs in it's mainsail. Wonder what it would be doing if it were using a set of sails and mast specifically designed around the windspeed they were experiencing.


G-Cat 5.7M #583 (sail # currently 100) in Bradenton, FL Hobie 14T
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Wouter] #59340
10/29/05 05:14 PM
10/29/05 05:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
C
C249 Offline
stranger
C249  Offline
stranger
C

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
Quote


Quote

Speed for money: nothing beats a windsurfer!



Surfer and Kite surfers overhere have several boards and a multitude of sails and mast. Each for optimal performance in a narrow windrange. The cost of all that is gettting very close to a catamaran. The kite surfers overhere, the serious ones, are spending more on the gear that one spends on a catamaran.

The picture is always more nuanced.

Wouter


Sure, many windsurfer sailors use a range of gear. But that's partly because they can afford plenty of gear for the cost of a single cat.

And boards are very efficient. Longboards, with one small sail for all conditions, are efficient across the full range of winds. Last time I sailed my Mistral IMCO (just 7.4m2 of sail) against cats I was similar speed around a windward/leeward course to a Nacra 14 square (which is a few points slower than a Hobie 16) that was sailed by an A Class worlds runner-up. That was in about 12-15 knots. In lighter airs the Nacra would have been ahead, around a triangle or in stronger winds the board may have been quicker. The old 12'9" LEchner D2 boards were even faster and I'm sure they'd burn off cats of the same length even upwind in most conditions.

Considering the board is over a foot shorter and carries about half the sail AND the longboards will sail in light winds and in stronger winds than many cats, it's pretty impressive.

Good Formula guys used to sometimes pace our club fleet. Their square-running speed seemed similar to the world A Class champion, upwind they were a little bit lower than the Formula 16s (Taipan 4.9s) with slightly slower VMG.

Compare apples to apples. A 12' board with 7.4m2 of sail would be VERY competitive with a 12' cat with 7.4m2 of sail in just about all conditions, and it would kill it for top-line speed.

Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: C249] #59341
10/29/05 05:40 PM
10/29/05 05:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Sure we are comparing apples to oranges, but it is too much fun to let the opportunity pass.

Quote

Compare apples to apples. A 12' board with 7.4m2 of sail would be VERY competitive with a 12' cat with 7.4m2 of sail in just about all conditions, and it would kill it for top-line speed.



How about a 107 kg surfboard with 18.7 sq. mtr sail area ? I bet the cat would knock you so hard that you have to sleep standing up at night.

Two can play this game. We should cats be forced to compare to YOUR specs and not the other way around ?


Quote

Last time I sailed my Mistral IMCO (just 7.4m2 of sail) against cats I was similar speed around a windward/leeward course to a Nacra 14 square (which is a few points slower than a Hobie 16)


News flash. catamaran design has advanced a little since the introduction of the Nacra 14 sq. and Hobie 16.

Cat sailors are not asking the surfers to race us on some 80's surf board ? Apples to apples remember. You can to use the lastest and fastest, we get to use the latest and fastest.


Quote

Good Formula guys used to sometimes pace our club fleet. Their square-running speed seemed similar to the world A Class champion, upwind they were a little bit lower than the Formula 16s (Taipan 4.9s) with slightly slower VMG.


Going on this statement alone. Who is FASTER ?

Thanks to the German boat show we have another direct comparison between an olympic Tornado, surfboard and kite surfer. As predicted the cat won, again ! The surfer started immediately to bitch about the weather not stable enough or the water not being flat enough. No guys, the right response would have been :"Congratulation cat sailors, you guys won this match. Be sure to bring that Tornado back next year as you will get a rematch"

I'm loving this, truly

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Wouter] #59342
10/30/05 07:59 PM
10/30/05 07:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
old hand

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Although very humorous, this comparisons between wind surfers and catamarans is about as informative and sensible as comparing windsurfers "speed" to ski boats, or how about comparing a windsurfer to "Geronimo" in an around the world race? How many skiers can a windsurfer pull up in 15 knots of wind?
We have all seen such “gimmicky” competitions as a human sprinter raced against a horse over 100m, and many years ago they used to race planes against cars! I don’t think anyone has really been interested in the outcome as any sort of definitive proof, one way or another, as to the relative “performance” attributes of one over the other?
If “conditions” are applied to any comparison between two very different things, then different results are forth coming. I.E. compare a windsurfer to a cat over, say, a 500-mile coastal race? Or make the comparison through a shore break with 3 metre waves. What about comparing the windsurfer to a “little Americans cup” C class cat around an “Olympic” course in 2 knots of wind? Then compare a windsurfer, sailing in 50-knot winds along a man made channel that is hardly wide enough or deep enough for a cat to actually sail in? It should be obvious to even the dimmest person, that different conditions will achieve far different result and because a cat and a windsurfer are such different craft, there cannot be any really equitable comparisons between their relative speeds, endurance, comfort, or even race, performances. So a windsurfer has been recorded at speeds approaching 50 knots? So what? My car does that in second gear! Is that any sort of a relative comparison?

Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: Wouter] #59343
10/30/05 08:17 PM
10/30/05 08:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
C
C249 Offline
stranger
C249  Offline
stranger
C

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6
Wouter, I raised the point because you said boards need a lot of wind and are therefore innefficient. If you want to talk efficiency then surely you should also allow for the fact that boards achieve high speeds with much less rig and much shorter hulls (and lower cost....) AND the boards normally get higher absolute top-end speeds.

I know people like Bethwaite says boards are innefficient because they need wind, but Frank doesn't know modern boards or performance longboards.

"Two can play this game. We should cats be forced to compare to YOUR specs and not the other way around ?"

Sure, it would be almost impossible to REALLY compare specs. But going on and on about the way a boat with 17m2 of sail can beat a boat with 7m2 of sail seems to be like an F16 sailor going on and on about being able to beat a Hobie Wave. Of COURSE the bigger boat is faster, just like the Tornado is faster than an F16. So what? The smaller F16 is still more efficient.

Actually, given that the old "dart specials" and course tandems were damn fast, a big board that costs as much as an F16 could be damn quick!

"News flash. catamaran design has advanced a little since the introduction of the Nacra 14 sq. and Hobie 16. Cat sailors are not asking the surfers to race us on some 80's surf board ? Apples to apples remember. You can to use the lastest and fastest, we get to use the latest and fastest."

Hang on, I was comparing the Nacra 14 (designed about '87??) sailed by an A Class world's runner-up and N14 national champion, to an IMCO designed about '91 and sailed by #5 in the nation but with a best world's place of 25th. Both are ODs of similar age. Sounds pretty comparable to me.

When I compared the FW board to an A Class, I was comparing a 2003 FW board sailed by a guy about mid-way in the national fleet, to a 2003 A Class sailed by the world champion. Sounds pretty comparable to me.

Sure, a 20' cat is normally faster around a course than an 8' FW board. I have made the same point to windsurfer sailors when they get ****. :-)

I'm not saying boards are better than cats, merely saying that both are superb in very different ways and it's a bit rough when you look at merely one criteria (speed around a course in medium winds with no allowance for size) and then use that to say the cat is more efficient.

Darryl, you're right, this is pretty meaningless. But once meaningless comparisons have started it seems reasonable to give another point of view.

By the way, you mentioned a long coastal race. Last weekend in the 110 or 150 mile Coastal Classic in NZ, a board and a Tornado Sport sailed as unnofficial entrants. The boardsailer had a support boat and switched gear at one stage IIRC and beat the Tornado home. Apparently it was mainly an upwind race. Still not comparable (since the board switched rigs) but interesting.


Last edited by C249; 10/30/05 08:39 PM.
Re: What is faster, a windsurfer or a multihull? [Re: ksurfer2] #59344
10/31/05 01:11 AM
10/31/05 01:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
veteran
Buccaneer  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
I've never been passed by a wind surfer however I'm not out there sailing in 40 -50k winds.:-) Under 20K not even close.


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: Enough, already!!! [Re: C249] #59345
10/31/05 04:48 AM
10/31/05 04:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
OK Children, don't you think it's all been said, and frankly becoming incredibly boring by now?

Why not leave the server space available for meaningful posts and discussions?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Humm, say what is the windsurf record for ... [Re: C249] #59346
10/31/05 05:11 AM
10/31/05 05:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I'm not saying boards are better than cats, merely saying that both are superb in very different ways and it's a bit rough when you look at merely one criteria (speed around a course in medium winds with no allowance for size) and then use that to say the cat is more efficient.


To that I fully agree.


Quote

By the way, you mentioned a long coastal race. Last weekend in the 110 or 150 mile Coastal Classic in NZ, a board and a Tornado Sport sailed as unnofficial entrants. The boardsailer had a support boat and switched gear at one stage IIRC and beat the Tornado home. Apparently it was mainly an upwind race. Still not comparable (since the board switched rigs) but interesting.


I remember the Tornado crew reefed their main in the middle of the race, so in effect they changed their rig as well.

But that is the fun of the cat / surfer comparison right. Surfer win some and cat sailors win some and that keeps both of us on our toes.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Enough, already!!! [Re: Jalani] #59347
10/31/05 08:54 AM
10/31/05 08:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
OK Children, don't you think it's all been said, and frankly becoming incredibly boring by now?

Why not leave the server space available for meaningful posts and discussions?


Agreed.

I got bored sailing windsurfers when I was 12 and started sailing cats. Sold my first short board and sails to help finance my first Dart (and cut a lot of grass too around my parents and their friends houses).



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Enough, already!!! [Re: scooby_simon] #59348
10/31/05 09:11 AM
10/31/05 09:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
addict
Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Hey Scooby,
the topic was "which is faster", a no-brainer in a straight line, really. I think a Hollander by the name of Jaap van der Rest sailed a standard Dufour Wing to 23,7knots in about 1979, a speed which tallies up nicely with discussions on this forum as to how fast a Tornado has ever clocked down a 500m course. Anyone who remembers the Dufour Wing will say, "but how ???"
Modern windsurfing gear has moved on a bit too since then and the top speeeeed has almost doubled.
Whether you got bored of windsurfing and cut the grass in your neighborhood to finance your first Dart, or whether you gave up windsurfing to cut grass, or whether you smoked the grass, is irrelevant.
Why not have the best of both worlds, I sail cats when its windy and windsurf when it`s insane, so I only have to sit on the beach when there`s less then 15knots (ie not enough to sail cats .)

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 631 guests, and 80 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1