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Boat/racing Insurance #63328
12/22/05 01:12 PM
12/22/05 01:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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HCANA requires a minimum $100,000 liabilty coverage to race.

Some homeowners policies allow riders for boats. Trailers may be in seperate from boats and/or a rider to an auto policy.

A $300,000 liability only policy would be roughly $45 per year. Of course then insure your boat and gear for your "replacement" value.

US Sailing one design policy info here
http://www.ussailing.org/odcc/boat%5Finsurance.htm


John H16, H14
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: _flatlander_] #63329
12/22/05 01:18 PM
12/22/05 01:18 PM
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Mary,
Quote
And I REALLY don't understand how you can buy insurance at registration, considering how complicated it seems to be if you actually contact an insurance company personally.


I don't understand how that could happen either, but I STRONGLY beleive we all should provide proof of insurance at the registration table.


John H16, H14
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: _flatlander_] #63330
12/22/05 01:29 PM
12/22/05 01:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Okay, here's more of my post from another thread:
Quote
This whole insurance thing is a complete mystery to me. I don't understand how it works and what it is that you are supposed to present to show that you have insurance at the regattas that require it. Are you supposed to show a copy of an insurance policy on your boat or a copy of your homeowners insurance policy? WHAT? (Nobody has EVER asked us to prove we have insurance of any kind.)

Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Mary] #63331
12/22/05 01:32 PM
12/22/05 01:32 PM
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League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
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Quote
Okay, here's more of my post from another thread:
Quote
This whole insurance thing is a complete mystery to me. I don't understand how it works and what it is that you are supposed to present to show that you have insurance at the regattas that require it. Are you supposed to show a copy of an insurance policy on your boat or a copy of your homeowners insurance policy? WHAT? (Nobody has EVER asked us to prove we have insurance of any kind.)


At one major event this year we had to show proof of liability insurance. They also sold policies at the event - we bought one as I had forgotten our paperwork. It was a simple form and covered us for just that event.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: flumpmaster] #63332
12/22/05 01:35 PM
12/22/05 01:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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They also sold policies at the event


But who is "they"?

Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Mary] #63333
12/22/05 02:48 PM
12/22/05 02:48 PM
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South Carolina
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We had to demonstrate (i.e. paperwork) that we had at least $SOMANYDOLLARS policy on our boat at the NAF18 North Americans. The Tybee 500 also requires you to demonstrate an insurance policy.

The insurance company will readily provide you a document showing what your coverage and limitations are...usually a one page sheet. With my company I can print it online. My insurance is a replacement policy (i.e. if I can't find a 2004 Nacra F18, they will cover the expense for the next newest boat I can find or new). It also covers me if I were to charter another boat for an event. They cover it while trailering and cover me if I foul someone resulting in damage or personal harm up to a limit. They also reduce my $500 deductable by 25% (to $0 in four years) each year that I don't have a claim. All for $181 a year.


Jake Kohl
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Jake] #63334
12/22/05 03:01 PM
12/22/05 03:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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You are talking about liability insurance, I assume. So you present paperwork on your boat specifically or via your homeowners insurance?

Ya gotta talk to me as though I don't know nothin', because I really DO know nothin' about all this.

And even if you have a homeowners policy, you have to contact your insurance company and put a rider on there for all the sailboats you have?

I have been sailing for 50 years and know nothing about how to do all this.

Last edited by Mary; 12/22/05 03:05 PM.
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Jake] #63335
12/22/05 03:02 PM
12/22/05 03:02 PM
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Quote
All for $181 a year.

Which confirms, from a previous discussion somewhere, that the liability portion is relatively small.


John H16, H14
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Mary] #63336
12/22/05 03:07 PM
12/22/05 03:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Quote
Ya gotta talk to me as though I don't know nothin', because I really DO know nothin' about all this.


Mary, knowing that a liabilty only policy(for when we damage someone elses property or injure another person) is roughly $45/$300K, in Jakes case most of that $181 is covering the replacement or repair cost of his 2004 boat, trailer and gear.

Last edited by flatlander18; 12/22/05 03:07 PM.

John H16, H14
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: _flatlander_] #63337
12/22/05 09:14 PM
12/22/05 09:14 PM
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Quote
HCANA requires a minimum $100,000 liabilty coverage to race.

Some homeowners policies allow riders for boats. Trailers may be in seperate from boats and/or a rider to an auto policy.

A $300,000 liability only policy would be roughly $45 per year. Of course then insure your boat and gear for your "replacement" value.

US Sailing one design policy info here
http://www.ussailing.org/odcc/boat%5Finsurance.htm
This says nothing about your generic beach cat only those that made the list. The one design list,the Uber list!

Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: BobG] #63338
12/22/05 09:50 PM
12/22/05 09:50 PM
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South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline
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Gee your insurance in the US sounds all like "a black art" that only the "initiated into the cult" understand. Here in OZ our marine coverage works exactly the same as our car insurance (some insurance companies marine policies are even on car paperwork) We insure the cat for a "new replacement" value and that covers all/ any damage to our boat, plus damage to any other craft if we are in the wrong, (the age of the boat is not a consideration) as well as having a 5 million dollar third party cover in the case of us causing injury or death to any third party(s). Also by being a financial member of a sailing club we also have an automatic cover by Yachting Australia that covers our personal injury or others injured by us. Without those covers no one can sail/race in any officially "organised“ sailing event. It takes any financial concern away from sailing/racing anywhere in Australia


Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: BobG] #63339
12/22/05 11:47 PM
12/22/05 11:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
This says nothing about your generic beach cat only those that made the list. The one design list,the Uber list!


Progressive knew what a Nacra F18 was a year and a half ago (it had not been around in the U.S. very long). State Farm knew what a Nacra 6.0NA is. Even if it's an off beat boat, they'll be glad to find something similar and use it to set up you a policy. It's inexpensive and very worthwhile.

Darryl,

It's not really any more complicated. What's confusing is that most home insurance policies cover the home owner for being a dumb butt away from the home...i.e. you get a certain amount of liability insurance - some policies even specify a limitation on the boat. My homeowner's policy has a blurb about covering so much liability on a non-powered boat under 21' as an added bonus but it stopped by indicating that it would not cover power boats. If you contact an insurance company to purchase insurance for your boat, it's very much like setting up a policy for a car (and yes, using the same forms!) .


Jake Kohl
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Jake] #63340
12/23/05 09:31 AM
12/23/05 09:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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I figured you had the same policy as me, Jake. Progressive is the only one I know with that sliding deductible option.

Homeowner's policies do, on occasion, provide limited liability coverage while you operate a boat, but you (the policy holder) need to check two things:
- does it provide coverage while you are racing?
- does it provide coverage for boats over 16 feet?

Most homeowner's policies don't cover boats over a certain length as a means of "encouraging" you to buy a separate policy designed for boats (power and sail).

Other things to check on:
- replacement cost vs. actual cash value (ACV values are depreciated)
- navigation areas (those that sail in Canada and enter the Tybee may want to make sure they're covered in US east coastal waters)

And yes, Progressive knows what an F-18 is, but my agent (4 years ago) wanted to know where the "galley" was on my N20. So, be prepared to provide a clear description of your boat and what you intend to do with it.

Not to seem like I'm playing favorites, but State Farm, Boat US, US Sail, Atlas, Geiko, and other companies offer boat coverage. I just ended up with Progressive.


Jay

Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #63341
12/23/05 09:49 AM
12/23/05 09:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
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_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Gee your insurance in the US sounds all like "a black art" that only the "initiated into the cult" understand.

Some homeowners policies cover boats, some auto policies cover trailers or boat and trailer while in tow. Both having loopholes or exceptions. A policy specific to a boat obviously best. Ours (US) being such a litegious society, when you mention racing it can, in some cases (carriers/agents) open up even more "black holes".
We are only discussing boat coverage. Want to get some different views of "what is required", start talking about insurance for clubs/fleets and hosting regattas, and who is covered and not!


John H16, H14
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: _flatlander_] #63342
12/23/05 10:07 AM
12/23/05 10:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
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(old work mode on)

It will break down into a collection of seperate covers (coverages as per US speak)

1, My boat is covered on my motor policy while being towed by the car.
2, It's covered by household (and marine policy) while on the trailer at home or the sailing club.
3, It's covered by the standard risks on my marine while tied to the ground at the sailing club.
4, It's covered by standard marine while not racing.
5, It's covered by additional cover for racing.
6, It also carries a 2m GBP 3rd party cover.
7, It's covered for 30 days racing risks in mainland EU as a standard extra on the racing risks cover.
8, Racing risks cover is for up to 10 miles off shore - well worth checking how far


You just have to make sure you have all the bits in place that you want or need.

points 2-8 build a risk profile, value of boat (plus other bits) go into a calc and out pops a premium.

(work mode off)

(I worked for an Insurance package Software house a while ago )




F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: scooby_simon] #63343
12/23/05 01:09 PM
12/23/05 01:09 PM
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Michigan
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This thread is very important and good. I think everyone should use this as an opportunity to double check on their coverage (I know I will after x-mas- I would hate to take out an ARC 22 or a brand new f-18 only to discover the ins company is going to play ignorant). I am somewhat jaded when it comes to situations like this because when they want to try to get out of paying- they WILL find a way! In the end it is a "big company screws stupid consumer" situation.

Last edited by PTP; 12/23/05 01:16 PM.
Re: Boat/racing Insurance [Re: PTP] #63344
12/23/05 02:22 PM
12/23/05 02:22 PM
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Lake Murray, SC,USA
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Mary: As Jake said, we have been required to have insurance for the Major events. They don't always ask to see the Policy, but at NAF 18's they took our Policy #, checked the coverage limits. We were told in advance we would not be allowed to race without it. They meant it.

We write it into the Race Registration for our local events, like they do at Spring Fever, and signing the registration form is also acknowledging that you have insurance and agree to be financially liable for damage caused. We do not check policies, however. One would wonder if the Sail Club could be held liable for damages by a competitor for that should someone turn out to have lied on the registration form. It is a litigious world. If it came down to the good graces of a sailing club or $15000 damages to my racing cat, I know which choice I'd make.

I posted this from the other Thread, too, seemed to belong here better.
Quote
Wow, shocking that Boat US wouldn't pay.
I have State Farm . . . They are cheap but require you to have your Homeowners or Renters insurance through them.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

NO, Mike: [color:"red"] Was State Farm that wouldn't pay. And you are Right, THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY CHEAP!![/color] [color:"brown"] Think they are expecially cheap beacause they refused when I asked for my premiums back since they did not provide the coverage I had contracted for. I had discussed my needs specifically with my agent at length when I purchased coverage [/color]
I had never filed a boating claim through them before, I actually did my I-20 insurance through them because so many sailors had good reports from them. Changed to Boat US afterwards. Hopefully they would respond differently if I were to file a claim. The people at Boat US were knowledgable about sailboat racing, and cooperative, unlike Jake's experience.
(Of Course, State Farm was pretty nice too, until I asked them to pay off on my policy)


CARY
ACAT XJ Special
C&C 24
Damage Insurance and the NOR... [Re: Cary Palmer] #63345
12/26/05 04:20 AM
12/26/05 04:20 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Damage, Insurance and the NOR … or .. “what the hell you just signed when you registered”!

When you register for a regatta, you agree to abide by the ISAF Sailing rules AND the prescriptions of your National Authority as well as the NOR and any amendments. Usually you agree to this and the more or less useless waiver/warning of your right to sue the RC, club, volunteers etc etc as part of registration. ( Bottom line…your club had best be incorporated and have regatta liability insurance for the water and the beach… read KEG!).

So, You agree to abide by the ISAF racing rules and, in the USA , you agree to the US Sailing rules called Prescriptions.

For example... the NOR for the 2006 OCR waive ALL US Sailing prescriptions for the ISAF grade 3 International event except for a few... one of them pertains to damage and its in the NOR that you agree to follow when you register for the event.

US SAILING PRESCRIPTIONS THAT APPLY:
23.1. Rule 68 DAMAGES – US Sailing prescribes that:
a. A boat that retires from a race of accepts a penalty does not, by that action alone, admit
liability for damages.
b. A protest committee shall find facts and make decisions only in compliance with the rules.
No protest committee shall adjudicate any claim for damages. Such a claim is subject to
the jurisdiction of the courts.
c. A basic purpose of the rules is to prevent contact between boats. By participating in an
event governed by the rules a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any
breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules , and
that she shall not be governed by the legal doctrine

So what does this mean?... In my opinion, If you loose the protest ... you have already agreed to pay for the other guy's damage as well as your own! That’s what part c. above means!

So.. you ALSO agreed to the following rule in the NOR.

21. INSURANCE: Each participating boat shall be insured with valid third-party liability insurance with a minimum cover of US$300,000 per occurrence or the equivalent.

Now you have agreed to be responsible ... how you come up with the cash is another matter entirely. You must… no options here… have 300K liability insurance. Your insurance provider will follow the international rules of the road and make their judgment on liability and what they will pay on this basis. They use the protest committee much like a police report (that's why your car insurance carrier TELLS you to NOT ADMIT ANYTHING... just get names of witness's that support your story AND if you are in the right… get a police report to support your story otherwise… decline to answer). Failure to keep a proper lookout and avoid a collision is a big rule and your starboard tacker or leeward boat usually has some responsibility to avoid the collision. So... they won't pay in full for both your damage and the other guy's damage.

What you really are buying with your insurance coverage is liability for a huge medical expense due to injury…. The boat is cheap! I don’t know of ANY coverage that honors the racing rules of sailing and the protest committee judgment.

Sounds like they claimed that your tiller broke and contributed or caused the collision since you could not avoid the collision. So, this was an act of god and you were not liable so the other guy has to pay for his own damage. (you have insurance on your boat so they will pay that off minus your deductible) Because you agreed to sail under the rules and the US Sailing prescriptions.... you have to pay up for the other guy out of pocket.

Now, if you don't pay up... then the guy you hit can file with US Sailing and have you banned from competition for breach of the sportsmanship rules because you violated your agreement to pay for damages when you registered for the race.

So, If you choose to NOT have the 300K in liability insurance and you sign the registration form and go racing and nothing bad happens… THEN WHAT… . You can and SHOULD BE tossed from the event for this WILLFUL misconduct and unsportsmanlike behavior… a clear violation of the rules. The outcome will be that you are banned from participating in all racing governed by US Sailing. Oh… and US Sailing can sanction a club for ALLOWING you to continue to race once you are banned and the club is notified that you are on the $%^*&% list.

Same kind of thing would occur on the beach. If your neighbor fails to secure his boat with sufficient ground anchors and the windstorm blows it over and damages your boat... Your insurance company will charge your own insurance to fix your boat… after you pay for the deductable... its an act of god and you paid for that coverage. Now, You can make a claim against his insurance company and they will disclaim it. . its an act of god that his boat blew over and damaged your boat. You, of course will hold the idiot next to you completely responsible for what you believes was his screw up in not anchoring his boat. So... you can claim negligence on his part... but now you have to prove that he was negligent in not anchoring the boat down. This is a matter of opinion whether he was negligent or not.. Obviously he believes he is NOT negligent ... So, now it comes down to what the contract reads for the property on which the boats were stored. If you can't get it resolved nicely then this will send you to small claims court ... I guess you can sue him and his insurance company but, I don't know if his insurance company will have to defend him or be financially responsible for his negligence which you are trying to prove. I think you are only able to sue him for negligence that caused your loss and he can sue his insurance company for failing to defend him. Best you can do is win a judgment against him and hope to collect. If he won't pay... you have to get a sheriff to enforce the judgment. (you probably quit sailing altogether after all of this BS!)

Another example, marina's are rewriting their policies in the contract you sign to make it explicit and hold you, the slip renter, liable for damage caused by your boat in a storm to their property. Same principle. (hey... you were supposed to take all precautions to secure your boat by removing it from the marina! … How… well that’s your problem… not theirs … best make sure that you are covered for this when you purchase your boat insurance)

(If Katrina taught us anything… it should be … read the damn policy)

Bottom line: … Sail at an event that requires insurance without it and after you signed the form… then you SHOULD BE BANNED by US Sailiing, Your Regional sailing authority and your club for willful unsportsmanlike behavior!

Fail to pay for damage that you cause from a rule violation … and you SHOULD BE BANNED for unsportsmanlike behavior by the same groups. Sailing ain’t NASCAR… If you take out somebody on the racecourse in the act of racing …. You are not required to pay for their car… Now… take somebody out because you want to screw them over and NASCAR will throw you out. It’s a different game.

What your insurance company says about the matter does not matter with respect to your participation in the GAME OF SAILBOAT RACING! Again, does anyone know of an insurance company that follows the Racing Rules of Sailing… not the coast guard regs?

Hopefully its clear.
Why does this matter… see my thread on Competition and Resentment!
IMO… people who choose to be ignorant of the rules CAUSE RESENTMENT on the Race course and hurt the sport by driving people away. Everyone wants to have a fun event… but when %^%& hits the fan… they want to know the rules are being followed (no surprises allowed) and that the playing field is fair.

Warning: I am neither a lawyer or insurance agent so these opinions are just that.... opinions based on my reading of the rules and policies. Anybody else have a different take?

Take Care
Mark



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Damage Insurance and the NOR... [Re: Mark Schneider] #63346
12/26/05 09:26 AM
12/26/05 09:26 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Quote
So what does this mean?... In my opinion, If you loose the protest ... you have already agreed to pay for the other guy's damage as well as your own! That’s what part c. above means!


Mark,

I disagree with this bit.

All it means is that you have lost the protest as you are deemed to have broken a rule. You have not admitted liability. In the broken tiller bar example, you could argue that yes, you broke the rules (and so loose the protest) but the casue of the damage was the brokjen tiller, so you are not liable, the manufacturer of the tiller bar is liable as the tiller bar was not fit-for-purpose.

The problem is proving it, and if you do we will all made to use solid stainless tiller bars as thet won't break!



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Damage Insurance and the NOR... [Re: scooby_simon] #63347
12/26/05 12:26 PM
12/26/05 12:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Scooby... I think you still are wearing your insurance hat.

Quote
A basic purpose of the rules is to prevent contact between boats. By participating in an
event governed by the rules a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules , and that she shall not be governed by the legal doctrine


This is the US Sailing prescription for the USA so maybe you don't have this rule in GB.

I still read this as I restated...
Quote
a boat agrees that responsibility for damages
Quote
shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules


Now maybe that means that you don't have to pay up... but I don't know what responsiblity means then.

Do your insurance policies in Great Britan cover you UNDER the Racing Rules of Sailing explicitly?

I know that I ask about coverage for racing and I am TOLD that Sure ... you are... but I don't believe I have ever seen it in writing and I know they don't refer to the racing rules of sailing.

Take Care
Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
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