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Re: Foiling [Re: Dean] #66296
02/09/06 02:28 PM
02/09/06 02:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Dean,

Are you saying a Rave foils in 7-10mph singlehanded?

or a Trifoiler?

I know of a Rave for sale with trailer in RI for $2500. I was under the impression they foiled in bigger winds. I saw the trailer, its well designed to minimize the setup hassle, but I would want to leave it rigged someplace if I owned it. Anyone done beach wheels for the Rave? Or does leaving it parked in the sand mess up the foiling mechanism? Could you leave it on a protected mooring?

Assuming I weigh 190lbs, when does a standard Rave start foiling? Would you consider it safe for one adult (me) and a small child, say 4 yrs old? Or does it pitchpole/crash such that it wouldnt be safe for a child?

Do you wear a helmet at 30knts? Or in the surf? can you get it airborne in the surf? What happens if you hit a shallow sandbar at speed? Will it survivie that?

What does a Rave need for upgrades? I saw a website once that showed mods done by differient owners. Something about joystick levers for manually controlling the foils. Is that required or a nice to have?

Just what I need, another boat.

Bill



-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Foiling [Re: bvining] #66297
02/09/06 02:57 PM
02/09/06 02:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
"nibble nibble"...I can hear the bug...and it's biting.


Jake Kohl
Re: Foiling [Re: bvining] #66298
02/09/06 03:41 PM
02/09/06 03:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
The Rave needs a breeze to get me up at 185 pounds- small whitecaps means 12-13 mph: then you are foiling along comfortably at say 16-17 mph. Fun tho. (til the wind drops or between puffs)
One wants to learn what one is doing properly before taking out small, breakable children. Please.
Do not hit heavy or submerged things: The first 2 demos I went to for a ride on a Rave- they were broken while I was looking at them, and I never got a ride. It took 2 more years to get a ride, so Guess how many of them I bought.

http://doranoster.com/
Look at Doran Oster's website for modifications like joysticks for the front foils. Adjustments (on the fly) of the angle of attack of the front foils are also very helpful. How do I know all this? I see Doran's Rave sitting on the beach every time we take our A-cats out sailing!


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Foiling [Re: bvining] #66299
02/10/06 09:53 AM
02/10/06 09:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Dean Offline OP
enthusiast
Dean  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Jake,
Your obviously suffering from terminal Cackalackitis: a slow, debilitating IQ degeneration. I love you anyway.
If the tide is favorable this year through East Pass for the RTI start, I'll see you there. Last year I didn't think I would be able to get my widebutt, surface friction hog through there. That would have been embarrassing.

QUESTIONS ANSWERED BELOW BUT can be continued on www.windriderforum.com

Go here for the Rave forum:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=5b6bc3389bc1fb7454e31946f781cad9

Those two Raves on Lake Santa Fe belonged to the two owners who were constantly fiddling to find better ways to fly sooner in less wind. And they did albeit with more controls that replaced the automatic leveling of the trim tabs. Those two boats were constant development mules. They weren't broken; just fettled to death. Doran gave up on his boat simply because he wanted to race and the Rave owners couldn't get together often enough to do so. So, he and Hollis went to A-Cats. I also have a Melges17. That doesn't mean I've abandoned the Rave. (It means my wife wanted something to do on a boat besides enjoy the ride so we have another boat on which she can handle the spin and jib. On the Rave, ain't nothing for her do do.)

FROM THE RAVE INSTRUCTIONS MANUAL:
For a stock Rave with no "Screacher" (assym. spinnaker):
Crew Weight: 120-160 lbs.
Boat speed needed: 10-12mph
Windspeed required: 10-11 knots.
If you add the screacher (97sq.ft.), liftoff can be accomplished MUCH sooner.

Crew Weight: 160-220
Boat speed needed: 12-13mph
Windspeed required: 11-12 knots

RAVE MANUAL IN ADOBE FORMAT:
For the complete chart on weight, speed, and windpseed needed for liftoff, go to this site on the Windrider Yacht Club, Rave forum, and click on the "Sticky" near the top of the list- "Rave Manual".
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=5b6bc3389bc1fb7454e31946f781cad9
Click on "Rave Manual" (in Adobe .pdf format) and go to page 19 of 48 for the complete chart for a stock boat with main and jib.

Once again, that chart is for the STOCK boat. The addition of the Screacher makes a huge, and sometimes hairy, difference.

INSTRUCTIONS ON FLYING A RAVE:
See my article here:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=407&sid=08f86a7da220c2f250505d4545dc2dde

PITCHPOLE MYTH:
Pitchpoles are so rare in this boat that it's hard to find any owner that has experienced it but, a pitchpole is nothing more than a very slow motion ride up to almost vertical. No matter how fast you're going it's still a slow event.

I would not fly with a small child until you are an experienced pilot. The reason is that the crew seat is just aft of a vertical frame strut. IF you pitchpole, there is a chance that the child would slide out of the seat into the strut. They wouldn't slide quickly but it's not something you want to deal with. Then, again, a child would more than likely hold on to the coaming for dear life and would be safe. I've wire tied a foam noodle around that strut. Don't take anyone flying until you've done a bit yourself. It's intuitive for an experienced sailor. A pitchpole is rare but it is no more disconcerting than a capsize but on the Rave it's not easy to recover by yourself as easily as it is on a catamaran. That's why there haven't been many pitchpoles. Once you see your bows digging, well, you know what to do unless you're new to sailing.

One good thing about the Rave and the TriFoiler is that the crew/passenger is safely ensconced within the hull. No need to worry about chasing errant small bodies that may fall off the edge.

THE BIGGEST SAFETY RISK AROUND A RAVE...
..is those foil edges. They are sharp and they are usually out of sight to feet walking around the boat. They will slice through shoes and into flesh. Almost all the time the flaps are flat on the bottom of the lake/beach but if one is upturned it's like a knife edge waiting to be stepped upon. When people are around the boat, make sure they are aware of the sharp edges on the flaps and the vertical foils.

NOT A SURF PUNCHER:
The Rave is not a surf puncher. Don't launch into a surf more than three feet high. The outer hulls, the amas, are long and slender and a big cross wave can bend one in the forward section. Just use common sense. There is an owner in Hawaii. I suppose he's careful.

I'VE HIT THE BAR AND I CAN'T GET UP:
We've had two owners who have hit a sandbar at 25mph+. (Read the chart before you go out. "What chart?") One boat was unscathed. The other needed a new beam and, I think, new foil. Total cost for the foil complete is about $300US. I don't know what the new beam cost but it's not exorbitant. Try running another boat up on a bar at that speed and see what's left to salvage. I've sailed with one Rave that had a slightly bent main beam and it flew just fine. It was odd that he was getting up just as easily as I was in my new boat. His port beam must have had a seven degree bend aiming toward the rear.

HELMETS AND A BIKINI ON BOARD ADD BOATSPEED:
A few guys have worn Gath helmets. Is it needed? Well, would it be a good idea to have a helmet on a cat? Probably so but you weigh the risk. That begs the question of also wearing rib protection of some sort when out in the trap on a cat. Is it needed? Maybe.

IT'S ALL SANDY. DOES IT STILL WORK?
You can pack sand and dirt into the trim tabs/flaps mechanism and they are completely not affected. Hard to believe until you've lived with the boat. I live where sugar sand gets everywhere. The tiny grains, shells, rock bits, never have hindered the hinges or control mechanisms. They are constantly being washed with the water action.

THE ONLY UPGRADE THAT IS NEEDED:
The only upgrade needed for the Rave is the "Doran foil uphaul" which is named after it's inventor, Doran Oster, and is simply a way to retract the heavy foils from the ****. See my site for the most advanced (over designed?) version of the uphauls.
http://home.earthlink.net/~deanrdh/deanhubbardsravetrimaranpage/

ADD A JOYSTICK FOR MORE CONFUSION:
I would not recommend the joystick manual control for each flap on the ama foils. The stock automatic leveling works perfectly. The manual controls experiment by three of the owners proved the manual controls able to point a little higher and to liftoff a little sooner but with an already busy **** it's asking too much for a pilot with only two hands and feet. Write Doran at doranoster.com for complete details. See that website for his experimental projects.

FOR YA'LL LIVING IN THE COLD:
For a boat in Rhode Island that's a good price. Check the transom CLOSELY to see if really cold weather has caused the plastic hull and aluminum frame to cause the crack due to different coefficients of expansion. The HD Poly is easily repaired but boats in the north should not be left in a really cold environment. How cold? We don't know but it was a problem with one owner in Maine, with a lawyer, who effectively helped kill production of the Rave. ("My boat leaks and I'm gettin' all WET! I coulda been killed! I'm gonna sue the bastards!") Just weld the crack back together and don't leave the Rave in the cold when the temp drops into the teens and below.

WHEELING IT AROUND:
Catrax are available for the Rave. On the Windrider yacht club site there are also pics of homemade wheels attached to the foils enabling the boat to be moved around on the asphalt parking lot. I think it's an Aussie or NZ owner that did that.

ENOUGH ALREADY!
I would recommend visiting the Windrider Yacht Club forum because the suffering cat sailors here have read all this before.
www.windriderforum.com

Re: Foiling [Re: Jake] #66300
02/10/06 01:23 PM
02/10/06 01:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
yeah jake, that damn bug, its always nibbling at my house, especially in the winter.

Re: Foiling [Re: bvining] #66301
02/10/06 07:09 PM
02/10/06 07:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Dean Offline OP
enthusiast
Dean  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 277
Baton Rouge, LA
Hey, Jake,

I hope you know I was teasing you!

Re: Foiling [Re: Dean] #66302
02/11/06 01:44 PM
02/11/06 01:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
Jake,
Your obviously suffering from terminal Cackalackitis: a slow, debilitating IQ degeneration.


This is entirely possible. No offense taken.


Jake Kohl
Re: Foiling [Re: Jake] #66303
09/26/06 10:14 PM
09/26/06 10:14 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Where can you buy a Moth with the foils?

Re: Foiling [Re: Dan_Delave] #66304
09/27/06 01:59 AM
09/27/06 01:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

The concept was to make a 16 to 18 foot boat that no other could beat around a regular triangle course, in all wind conditions.



We'll take that challenge. Make one under the F16 rules set and then you can bring it up against some of the lightest and newest beach catamaran designs available and hopefully proof your concept. The lightweightness of the class rules will make effectively foiling that much easier.

I would love to learn from a demo like that.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Foiling [Re: grob] #66305
09/27/06 06:08 AM
09/27/06 06:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 53
CT Shoreline
W
Wet1 Offline
journeyman
Wet1  Offline
journeyman
W

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 53
CT Shoreline
Neat video. Wow, that thing looks like a b!tch to pilot!


Wouter,
Note the date of the original post. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Wet1; 09/27/06 06:09 AM.
Re: Foiling [Re: Wet1] #66306
09/27/06 08:29 AM
09/27/06 08:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

I'd noted the date earlier, but the invitation still stands nonetheless.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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