I race in a mix of monohulls and multihulls more often than not. It doesn't really seem to be much of a problem. Sailors (especially thistles and isotopes) have simply learned that it doesn't pay to get caught up dueling with a boat in a different fleet. Generally speaking, you're much better off sailing away from a confrontation, even if you have right-of-way.

Most of my racing is around drop-marks, and race committee often starts multihulls first (so they get out and away from the monohulls) and frequently send the multi's an extra lap (trying to even out the racing time). Yes, the different boats do interact on the course, but that's just life. I have occasionally heard members of one fleet griping about having to avoid other fleet boats, but that's just sour grapes. Every boat (no matter what type) is entitled to be there and everybody has to abide by the same rules. If I don't like sailing with other boats, that's my problem, not theirs.

Most inter-fleet enounters seem to take place at the leeward mark -- you just have to take care not to get pinned under a boat that doesn't round up as fast as you want. One of the clubs I sail with used to have a separate leeward mark for catamarans. We did away with that, though, so that we could report finish data to US Sailing for the Portsmouth Handicap. We've been racing that way for two years now without any real problem.

Regards,
Eric

Last year, the Long Beach Yacht Club http://LBYC.org started the R33 catamarans with the PHRF A fleet. It was great racing with a handful of the fastest racing monohulls in Southern California. Typically, an upwind-downwind course would favor the monohulls, but throw in a reach and the R33 catamarans could do much better. All in all, it was very fun.

John Papa
http://SailFast.us

We have integrated with the monohull fleets fairly well, but my advice would be having at the very least, a different A mark. A different course would be preferable, and certainly never race DPN/PRHF conversion. If you are easing your club into cats, do it slowly, they are just plain different from us in logic and philosophy.
Another thought is to have an "Adopt a monhull skipper day" and let them race with you. Swap boats occasionally in your local races. Crew for them. Have them crew for you. All these thngs will keep the cats in a good light with the monohullers, and unfortunately with all the beaches going private, we need them. But conversley, they need the numbers, and that would be us.

One more reason why I thank God I'm in a socialist country; all beaches are state property overhere and open to the general public. I can walk from north to south without trespassing.

Wouter

I also have the impression that mast-up storage at yacht/sailing clubs are way easier to find in Europe?

Her in Norway, there is a general building prohibition within 200 meters from the sea, just to keep it accessible. Not strictly enforced, but still very easy to get to the sea. If you are lucky enough to own a private beach, you can still not deny public access to it, unless it is a major infringement on your privacy (house needs to be withing 200meters of the beach) and you are willing to go trough a civil court.
But, generally the launching ramp at the clubs are much better and have safer storage/parking than a public beach.

This must be better for most than having beaches 'developed' and access restriced.


Btw: Wouter, you do know that our american friends have the impression that socialism is the same as communism? Which it is not, and that we have right wing politicians just as badass as their GOP's over here..

Wouter/Rolf:

You guys are gonna' love this! The beach here is public property too, up to the "mean" high tide line! That means there is only a "public" beach when the tide is out! Also, there is very little access; places to park your car, use the restroom, etc. To make matters worse, there are no building set-backs of any consequence to the public, except in theory! In practice, if you have the money, you can build all the way to the mean high tide line.

I expect all sorts of raging, screaming remonstrations that this just isn't so! In reality, it is exactly so! I invite you to come see for yourselves, you can bunk in at my place!

I have been sailing with monohulls In the Wed Nights on Clear Lake for 9 years now and periodically at Houston Yacht Club for about 10-11 years. In general it has been fun and worth the effort to get to know the "main stream" sailors.

In general the problems have been boats that don't see you, the Mark roundings and when the winds demand you go thriough the middle of the course or through spinnaker boat "line" downwind. For boats that don't see you, you just have to watch. For the marks, just stay clear and stay out of wind shadows. It's just not worth the effort to fight it out. Also in heavy air, give spinnaker boats plenty of room at the leeward mark. You do not want to be anywhere near them if they can't get the spinnaker down. Downwind through the middle of the course, be very careful. Wild Thinging a Tornado or an A-Class through the spinnaker boat line is a cool and scary experience.

If you have the chance, start with the Lasers. Sharing a start line with a bunch of Olympic Wannabes gives you some good experience. Also their tacking upwind in light air can teach you some things.

You will learn some new techniques.

"scrape" - use the line of monohulls to scrape your opponents off.

Shadow - Sucker your opponent into a big boat's wind shadow

Slam Dunk - use your wind shadow to induce a "death roll" in the Laser that headed you up at the start.


Carl

[/quote]


One more reason why I thank God I'm in a socialist country; all beaches are state property overhere and open to the general public. I can walk from north to south without trespassing.

Wouter [/quote]

Same deal in Hawaii, a third world country with ammenities. The hotels that have walled off the beaches have to provide access to the beaches and, in some cases, also have to provide free parking. Now if we could get them to build in a path wide enough to move a cat in on beach wheels...

what is absolutely effing remarkable Wouter is that not only do I know the difference between socialism and communism, but its not actually private ownership of the land that restricts beach access. Its the local city and county ordinances that are in place that don't allow boats OF ANY TYPE to be launched from the beach. This is to prevent the stanard domestic variety southern redneck from driving his big rig loaded down with jetskis on the beach and starting his own little game of "hit the innocent swimmer".

In fact, everytime I've either
A) Asked permission from a private landowner to use his/her property or
B) Rented a room (aka a hotel or resort) from the landowner

I've had absolutely zero problems launching from the beach. We may be a litigous society, but as long as you're careful, respectful of the land owners, and leave things the way they were before you got there, stuff is just fine around here.

So you see, in the grand scheme of things, at least ancedotally, its not private ownership of land that has restricted beach access, its actually been the babysitting government that has made our lives inconvenient because of the actions of the few inconsiderate and stupid amongst us.

I'm glad you live in a socialist utopia over there. Keep it over there and we wont have any problems ok?

It gets a little expensive to rent a motel room each time I want to go sailing, which is why I'm sailing less. And, many motels won't accept a trailer because it takes too much room.

Also, we are much more crowded here in Florida, than N.C. I would imagine.

Unfortunately, with so many people moving from Florida to the Carolinas, you may come around to my point of view sooner than you think.

To make matters worse, we have a very nice causeway here, much like Dunedin, but it is illegal to launch there because of the jet-ski problem.

My experience with beach access is that we have lots of access in the Northeast. Ramps are plentiful and mostly free,

Places like Sail Newport for mast up storage. At $300 a season for an 18ft cat its a bargain.

http://www.sailnewport.org/npt/m/_general/default.asp

On Cape Cod they recently outlawed jet ski's at all of the national seashore waters, so now we have zero competition at all the ramps the jet skiers used to use.

http://www.wilderness.org/WhereWeWork/Massachusetts/capecod.cfm

It was I who made the socialism==communism remark, as a jest.

Regarding typical redneck behaviour, I was under the impression that the other rednecks on the beach would quickly pull out their assorted military grade assault weapons and blast the offender to smithereens..

On public beaches, no motorized vessels are allowed close to the beach with engines running. Usually the no-motor zone is marked with yellow buyos, which are great to "slalom" for tack/jibe exercises (not many swimmers out there when the sailing is good).
If there are no markers, vessels approaching are required to slow down to 5 knots and stay clear of people in the water. That goes for cats as well. Most public beaches are closed off or fenced off to stop vehicles from driving on the beach. But getting a cat in is no problem. As are dinghys, windsurfers, kiteboards etc. But as most clubs have room for mast-up storage, there is usually no need to do much trailer sailing.

It is not heaven over here, but I like it (except for the lack of proper daylight during winter here at 63degrees north).

Bill,

Count your blessings! That ain't happenin' down here!

I called a lady who has a large RV park right on the Gulf (Red Coconut, Ft. Myers Beach)and asked how much it would be to rent a site for my Hobie, she said she wasn't interested in that type of business and hung up!

Rolf;

We just passed a "no retreat" law here in Florida. For decades the law required you to retreat before using deadly force, now you can just blast away (if you feel your life is in danger)! Hell, as a "domestic variety Southern red neck" I'm all for it, 'course I'll have to buy a gun first!

Good to hear it's that way in your neck of the woods. Elsewhere around the country it's at least a mixture of both. There are beaches in California where private ownership has cut off the once free access to the beaches - it's been an ongoing fight from what I'ver read. Few people who own such property want to let others onto what they have paid to own. In my neighborhood in MD we have beaches, launch ramps, boat slips, racks for kayaks - but you have to own property in the community to use any of them - and the community guards it pretty closely. The waterfront properties don't actually own the waterfront, but you'd need to go through their yard to get there, and then you still need to be from the community (community retains riparian rights). There are a lot of such neighborhoods either guaranteeing access if you live there or cutting it off if you don't. In Galesville where my club races, there are no public launch ramps or beaches. The land around the water is privately owned (including the land we use) or controlled by marinas (with no launch ramps). In actuality, the only true public water access around the Annapolis area other than the marinas (private, not all with launch ramps) are the county and state parks that just happen to be kept operating by the "babysitting governments". In fact, our "babysitting governments" are studying ways to guarantee more access, which will probably involve some socialistic practices like buying land for public use.

Pete:
I know, and I tought it insane that you should need this. Of course you can use deadly force if your own or others life are in danger, it's the same here. But guns are not as widespread, so people tend to end up at the wrong end of them very seldom.
If at least everybody who owned a gun knew how to use it..
I think Norway, Sweden and Finland have one of the highest guns per citizen ratios in the world, but they are mostly hunting rifles and we have very few yearly firearm murders (mostly family tragedies).

Rolf; Seriously, I do support the "no retreat" law, but this is not the place to explain as it would take too long.

Happily, gun deaths in the U.S. are comming down.

Keith:

It just gets better and better. Here in Florida the "baby sitting" government permitted an increase on homeowners insurance policies to help rebuild all those waterfront mansions that were destroyed by hurricanes.

My policy will increase about $600, $100 of which will go to the uber wealthy.

A few years back, one of the tiny, ultra wealthy towns on the Atlantic coast outlawed eating or drinking on the beach. I'm told it was very effective in keeping beach traffic down, especially for families with young children.

I would explain the rationale, but the reasoning is much too arcane for a "domestic variety Southern redneck" to comtemplate.

Just enjoy your water while you still have it!

Keith:

Marylands a bitch. I'll admit it.

In Talbot county, there are so "few" places to put in, that the ONE county-owned "free use" ramp just started charging non-county residents a $50 per launch fee to cut down on the traffic from out-of-towners launching their boats.

When it boiled down to it, what we found out is that the local fisherman were upset that others outside the county were able to trailer their fishing boats, and compete at a lower cost than the locals that have to pay county taxes and slip fees and so forth. I can't remember if they passed that rubbish, but its not like I care.... you know why?

Because I can launch at TAYC anytime I want. I not only have friends that are members, but its where I learned to sail. The first time I brought ole squalus up north, I looked for a place to launch, and even though its a "closed club" and I'm not a "member" I walked in the gates and asked to speak to a club manager. Took less than 5 minutes of simply asking if I could use the otherwise un-used beach, and I was good to go. He said that I had to be out of there by 6pm because of a party that night, to which I agreed.

Similarly, I've launched from the Ferry dock in Bellvue (simply because its closer to my house) after I asked the Ferry-skipper if he had a problem with me being there. Of course he said he didn't mind.

In Myrtle Beach SC, we rented a room at a hotel on the beach however there was a seawall between the parking lot and the beach. We went a block down the street to one of the "resorts" that had their road end in the sand and went to the front desk to ask if it was ok to put the boat in there. Of course they said no problem. As we were putting up the stick, a police officer came by and asked if we had permission to use the private property, which we had just obtained.

Four years ago, Bahia-Honda State Park. A friend (RTodd) wanted to launch his 18SX on the beach side of the state park. There was a kayak ramp from the road which would suit a beachwheeled cat just fine. He was told no, no way, impossible, and he had to buy a launch permit for the marina side and at least one nights "anchorage fee" for his SX. He was forced into ramp launching, and sailing out through a VERY narrow marina entrance/exit channel, once resulting in him hitting rocks with his bow to avoid a cigarette boat kareening through the channel.

You see, while we might not just had free reign to go about tromping where-ever we want, people are reasonable enough to discuss possibilities for fair use. Governments lack higher brain functions, and are therefore unable to adapt to different situations in a reasonable manner.

What I can't effing stand is people moping around saying that "life's not fair, I can't put my boat in within 30 minutes of my house, damnit what is the government doing to help me?" You sound like a bunch of Katrina victims that spent the night before partying it up on Bourbon street. Don't rely on the government to do jack-diddly for your cause. Unless you can demonstrate that your wishes will either get votes, or get tax dollars, then you're wasting time complaining about some pie-in-the-sky dream that will never happen.

In short, be wary of any man (or woman) that says "Let the government take it over! We'll all be happier!"



The wealthy vote and pay proportionately much more in taxes. Sucks don't it? I wonder how many floridian carpenters, electricians, masons, plumbers, building suppliers, inspectors, and land developers are going to be able to feed their families because these "uber weathy" mansions are going to be rebuilt. You might have a leg to stand on if you claimed that they were going to be rebuild regardless of the tax benefit.

Also, I'll pre-declare my hipocrasy - the two inland lakes that I sail at are both parks. One is a city park and the other is a state park. However, you can't drink alcohol at either, and at both you're subject to very stiff regulations. (For instance at the city park lake, you are not permitted to enter the water beyond your knees due to "wildlife and water quality restrictions")

Matt,
You might want to talk to Sail Newport.
http://www.sailnewport.org/npt/m/_general/default.asp
We raced F18HT's for 2 years in the Newport Regatta in a division with j22, Fireballs, Sheilds and the Star class. We had our own start and never had any issues. In fact the race committee for our division was able to get the multihulls on a few more races because we were back and ready and they weaved us into the start sequence while the leaners were out on the course.

North Barrington YC (RI) was the race committee for our division. I'm sure that if you call Sail Newport they could put you in touch with someone from North Barrington YC and you could ask your particular questions.

My memory of the races was that the course was spread out enough that we never had any issues.

Another race I did with big monohulls was a round Jamestown race and they started everyone together. Being on the line with those giants was scary (40-66ft) It was windy and they were all leaned over hard, sailing back and forth across the line during the starting sequence. Being down at water level gives you a very unique perspective on a big monohull, especially when they are bow down, leaned over. They look very fat from that angle, and you cant really see anyone, the only thing you see is the bow, the keel and the side of the hull. The people are very far away and the boats seem really big and threatening. I remember Peter Johnstone sailing up to me and saying "you might want to stay out of the way, getting run over by one of those would be a bad day to die.

I was right with you up until:



I'm not a tax guy, but in my conversations with a few "uber wealthy" folk here in my town (where you can't throw a rock an not hit one - who will then sue the pants off you and the next seven generations of your kin), it would appear that there are plenty of loopholes that can be taken advantage of.

To be fair, most of these people are EXTREMELY generous by nature, but to declare that they are getting "stiffed" by higher OVERALL taxation (not tax rates) would be a stretch...

We've lost convenient beach access because:
1 too many people want the same thing as us
2 we sat around thinking things wouldn't change
3 we expected "someone else" to take our interests to heart
4 a few bad apples spoiled it for the rest of us (and then #3)