Me...."I like the Tornado better as a boat but the F18 has more boats at the regattas." spot on there mate

Heh? You're comparing used boat pricing vs. new boat pricing? A new N20 is in the $19k range while the F18s are floating around the $14.5 to $15.5 mark. Apples to apples. Used N20s can be had for $8k to $11k - same goes for used F18s.

Well, the advice is to stay out of F20 racing for now and first see where the class is going. It is on a delicate balancing act as a direct result of Nacra deciding to pull out of the F20 class. Right now it can go either way; meaning one possible course is dying.

A short while ago Nacra decided to place their Inter-20 out of the F20 ruleset by entlarging the mainsail to US specs. The other factors were the F18 Worlds being held in NL in 2005 and the fact that F18 is a much stronger class with progressingly faster boats while the F20 is somewhat stationary. It is my opinion that the F20 class has reached negative critical mass about 6 to 12 months ago. This means that they are into a selfpropelling decline.

As stated above one of the factors was the Dutch F18 worlds. This saw an important group of F20 sailors move to the F18 class; the newer F18 designs also carry weight better so now that they are there they are not expected to move back to the F20 again. The development in the F18 class was making the gap between F20 and F18 smaller and smaller performancewise. In addition the US sailor prevent consilidation of the F20 class by refusing to play by the F20 rules, in effect the F20 class never made it outside of Europe, or more precise North-West Europe as France never got on the F20 wagon. The nacra builder and importer was then faced with a defacto split situation. They opted for some reason to go onto the offensive (understandable) and force all Inter-20 to a single setup the world over. They gambled on the US I-20 setup and so disgarded the European F20 setup for the non-F20-compliant US I-20 setup. This is pushing another round of Eu I-20 sailors towards the F18 class. At the same time F18 racing is growing in the US, and into a large part out of US I-20 sailors. It is quite possible that the builder/importer decided to gamble on the wrong horse. They rocked the boat with respect to a reasonable well established Eu F20 fleet in favour of a contracting US I-20 fleet.

I personally don't fancy the chances of the new nacra 20 (former US I-20) fleet as a One-design class. I don't think the European sailor is interested in OD classes at this time, in addition the US sailor is leaning more and more towards the (non OD) F18 class. In effect a similar trend.

I'm personally all for allowing classes to develop and upgrade themselfs, however you must time these developments carefully. Now it may have been the case that they saw a serious problem ahead when staying F20 and that breaking out provided better chances, in such a case this move would be smart. Time will tell if it was.

Stay tuned !

Wouter

You both loose guys !

new N20 - $19k range
new F18s $15k range to $15.5 mark.
older second hand N20/F18 - $10k range


New F16s - $13k range (and lower doctor bills by avoiding a hernia !)
older second hand F16's (taipans)- $7k range

Wouter

It amazes me that anybody can afford to buy any of the modern cats, new or used!
It's not hard to understand why the overall number of sailors is not increasing (and is probably declining)

It seems like I would be happy with an older, cheaper, boat if I just didn't read this forum so obsessively!

Exactly my toughts also Mary!

As for the F20 class ("negative critical mass" Wouter, that must be an oxymoron if I ever heard one), I think they never reached critical mass. Should have widened the rules so more boats could be grandfathered, but it's never easy to set the limits..

Jake, a 4 year old Inter 20 could still win a national championship. Can you say the same thing about a 4 yer. old Tiger or Nacra F18? That is the only problem with Formula vs. One Design racing. Formula boats can (and will) change/improve every year, the Inter 20 is still using the same mast, hulls, boards, since 1998.

I know what you are saying, and I agree, a NEW I 20 is more expensive than an new F18, which I'm sure also has alot to do with many I 20 teams getting into F18's. The fact still remains, a Used Inter 20 is faster and cheaper than a new F18, that is the point I was making. Aples to Oranges I know, but I prefer Oranges (faster, cheaper boats).

One other thing, why is there no F18 class in the Tybee race? See?? They would rather race the I 20 in the ocean. Most of them will be on older boats but still faster and cheaper than a new F18.

Talk about thread creep, this was supposed to be about the A cat vs. the F16!

As F18 has barely been around here for 4 years, it's hard to say if one might win a world championship. But you can probably bet that the sailor "Type A's" with the ability to win a championship will be on a shiny new boat year after year. Therfore you can't really proove it or use results as evidence. You guys (most of whom don't race F18) get SOOOO caught up in the differences of the boats and assume that it leads to a huge difference in performance. If you actually got out there and sailed at a Nationals or regional event, you would find that the equipment is a miniscual part of the equation. Developments will come and might make that 1-2% difference but how many of you are sailing to 99% of your potential?

As one person who sails both platforms (including N20's in the Tybee) I think it's only a matter of time before an F18 fleet assembles for the Tybee500. It's going to take an F18 person to act as a catalyst and some effort on part of the race committee. I would sail my F18 in the Tybee500 but will agree that the I20 is a bit more "off road ready" platform for this race. I sail the I20 in the race because it's the largest (only) class and I've been fortunate enough to have access to a boat.

A new sunfish...$3300.00.

13k? euros, maybe

Actually it makes sense for Nacra to standardize the mainsail size. The F20 class was dead, and so this standardization would creat a stronger worldwide class.

Also, hasn't Nacra petitioned to ISAF to adjust the F20 class to meet this spec?

It would be very easy for other builders to comply with the spec as well... just a new main, which people get every year or two anyway. If the F20 class is dead, its because of the cost of the boats compared to F18, and that you require 2 strong people, vs F18 which doesn't require as much physical strength.

A cat vs F-16?
The A cat has a class with active racing in the US.
The F-16 is still working on it.
It's that simple.

Re. cost: A new "Full Race" Opti will set you back $3,500, no trailer! A new Full Race Laser is about $5,000. I bought a used Hobie 18 for $750, a used Hobie 14 for $500 and a used Pridle Escape for $500, and each of them came with a trailer. None of them would be competitive for racing however, each was cheaper than my used Laser. ($1,000) I think the new prices of the Inter 20 just put that boat out of reach for many of us, just like the new A cats. $20,000 is a lot of dough to sneak past the wife! Maybe after the kids leave...

Yeah, that, too. 50 percent increase in price in the last 10 years. And the price of a Laser has increased at least as much and probably more, percentagewise.

In those two cases it can't be due to improved technology and higher building costs. So do the prices of the boats go up due to decreased demand; or is the demand decreasing because the prices of boats have gone up?

I guess that is an age-old economics question, and I sure don't know enough to answer it.

And Hobie Waves are a best-seller for Hobie Cat, and yet their price also has increased by at least 50 percent since they were introduced. I just don't understand any of this economics and marketing stuff.

For starters $3,300. in 2005 is equal in value to $2652.37 in 1995.

I was wrong. We paid $1,800 for a new Sunfish, and that was in about 1997.

But what I don't understand is how people's incomes can be going up as fast as the prices of boats.

I'm think one may benefit the other.

huh-uh !

fully fitted doublehanded race ready Blade F16 with an Ullman suit of sails = 12.900 US$


A full Blade F16 price list was given earlier this week in this very thread. Follow the link :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...view=expanded&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

You should have done your homework better.

People's incomes are not going up as fast as boat prices, that is why racing sailboats is on the decline I think. The middle class is being outsourced, so I expect you will see more downward pressure on middle class incomes.

OR, maybe it's that for the $19,000 of an A2 cat you could buy two $8,000 jet ski's, a trailer and have $2,000 gas money left over.

OR, as my son would prefer: two $6,000 Motocross bikes, a trailer and have $6,000 left for gear and spare parts!

OR, four $4,000 four wheelers, a trailer and gear for the whole family to ride.


OR, you could buy an Airplane!
http://www.barnstormers.com/

click on Search, type in "Pietenpol"

Of course all those things are going to cost you more after the purchase, just because they need gas to operate, and more in maintenance, but then you have to buy new sails if you are going to race, right?

There are lots of other things you can do with that kind of money, that the rest of the family could actually participate in, and you can do them even if there is no wind. Except for the airplane, they are quicker to learn, much faster than racing an A cat or Inter 20.

As boat prices continue to climb, I don't think you will see more people sailing, probably less, unless the price of gas goes so high that the motorized sports are just too expensive for the average family of 4, which could happen this summer if we get a couple more hurricanes in the Gulf!